Mike Lozano
New member
The clouds were looking pretty good the day I took this HDR shot. Comments welcome.
http://lafango.com/1hdr4u/media/2299741-river-clouds
http://lafango.com/1hdr4u/media/2299741-river-clouds
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Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!
Clouds over the river
- Thread starter Mike Lozano
- Start date
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hello Mike,
Your picture's now immediately visible to everyone.
Mike Lozano: Clouds Over The River
Asher
Tom Dinning
pro member
I'll be blunt, Mike. It's faster.
I have no idea what your background is in photography but this is at the far left of the scale. Your handling of HDR is pretty ordinary. No it's not. It's bloody awful. The whole image looks dirty. As for the composition, it probably would make a reasonable shot if you gave us something clear and tidy to look at. Concentrate on gettin the image in the camera right before you start mucking about with tricky stuff. It does nothing to enhanses the image here.
I have no idea what your background is in photography but this is at the far left of the scale. Your handling of HDR is pretty ordinary. No it's not. It's bloody awful. The whole image looks dirty. As for the composition, it probably would make a reasonable shot if you gave us something clear and tidy to look at. Concentrate on gettin the image in the camera right before you start mucking about with tricky stuff. It does nothing to enhanses the image here.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Posting in "Riskit!" helps everyone!
Mike,
First, thanks for sharing your work in this special section where work is of one photographer only in an area where they do not claim mastery or expertise. This allows the rest of us to give you super-honest feedback. The very discussion then is a generous way of helping those who are reluctant to share for fear of their work being "attacked" as less than perfect. Actually we hate perfection. What we only want are pictures that meet or exceed the photographer's own goals and needs and ALSO move us. If discussion can help folk in their own goals, then OPF works for everyone!
Asher
Mike,
First, thanks for sharing your work in this special section where work is of one photographer only in an area where they do not claim mastery or expertise. This allows the rest of us to give you super-honest feedback. The very discussion then is a generous way of helping those who are reluctant to share for fear of their work being "attacked" as less than perfect. Actually we hate perfection. What we only want are pictures that meet or exceed the photographer's own goals and needs and ALSO move us. If discussion can help folk in their own goals, then OPF works for everyone!
Asher
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Mike,
We can look at you image and how it developed from a captivating scene to one that even upset a normally Tom, Aussie, a modest but quirky fellow, to stop criticizing himself long enough to call your picture out. His bluntness might shock some but is really valuable. We need the truth sometimes to cut us down so we can grow and realize our individual potentials. That's what "Riskit" is about and I hope that's why you posted in this select section.
Mike Lozano: Clouds Over The River
Let me share with you some underlying human reactions related to your picture. These are cross-culturally universal for all humanity:
The sight of a winding road, railway line lost into the distance or a long stretch of river between hills evokes the strongest fabric of one common idea to all cultures. This is the feeling that life is a journey. In fact, it's deemed the master metaphor of all language. So you picked a naturally beautiful scene which resonates with our inner beings, a river of life.
In framing it you included some portions of objects that are distracting. The worst is the small leafy branches from the mid left border. The larger branch above it would be better even larger! Apart from these easily correctible minor points, the essential features of a pleasant landscape are there. Kudos to this point in making the picture. but then what?
Just for those who might not have a strict workflow, (and as you no doubt know), our next step would be to simply deal with white point, black point, color balance, contrast, saturation and brightness according to our expressive feelings to bring out the beauty and spirit of the place we want to experience again. One could tidy up the picture, or not, depending on our values, adjust the curves and then sharpen and convert to sRGB color space for posting. This would have delivered a nice image with soft diagonal clouds working well with the strong gesture of the river.
Instead you chose HDR. For many, HDR adds "drama" and therefore becomes the way to "jazz up" pictures. Yes, it does make the river surface glisten. However caution is needed. Here, that decisionHDR processing, unfortunately deconstructed the scene. The strongest component is now the sky traversed diagonally by dark cloud. These haves with no special structure, shape or verve, just dominance. The river itself is now diminished in importance.
Mike, could you show us the original picture and some of the others you took at the time? This is an image worth revisiting. Perhaps you might even allow others to process your photograph by their workflow to see the alternate ways it might be worked, HDR, included.
I do hope you find this feedback acceptable and useful.
Asher
We can look at you image and how it developed from a captivating scene to one that even upset a normally Tom, Aussie, a modest but quirky fellow, to stop criticizing himself long enough to call your picture out. His bluntness might shock some but is really valuable. We need the truth sometimes to cut us down so we can grow and realize our individual potentials. That's what "Riskit" is about and I hope that's why you posted in this select section.
Mike Lozano: Clouds Over The River
Let me share with you some underlying human reactions related to your picture. These are cross-culturally universal for all humanity:
The sight of a winding road, railway line lost into the distance or a long stretch of river between hills evokes the strongest fabric of one common idea to all cultures. This is the feeling that life is a journey. In fact, it's deemed the master metaphor of all language. So you picked a naturally beautiful scene which resonates with our inner beings, a river of life.
In framing it you included some portions of objects that are distracting. The worst is the small leafy branches from the mid left border. The larger branch above it would be better even larger! Apart from these easily correctible minor points, the essential features of a pleasant landscape are there. Kudos to this point in making the picture. but then what?
Just for those who might not have a strict workflow, (and as you no doubt know), our next step would be to simply deal with white point, black point, color balance, contrast, saturation and brightness according to our expressive feelings to bring out the beauty and spirit of the place we want to experience again. One could tidy up the picture, or not, depending on our values, adjust the curves and then sharpen and convert to sRGB color space for posting. This would have delivered a nice image with soft diagonal clouds working well with the strong gesture of the river.
Instead you chose HDR. For many, HDR adds "drama" and therefore becomes the way to "jazz up" pictures. Yes, it does make the river surface glisten. However caution is needed. Here, that decisionHDR processing, unfortunately deconstructed the scene. The strongest component is now the sky traversed diagonally by dark cloud. These haves with no special structure, shape or verve, just dominance. The river itself is now diminished in importance.
Mike, could you show us the original picture and some of the others you took at the time? This is an image worth revisiting. Perhaps you might even allow others to process your photograph by their workflow to see the alternate ways it might be worked, HDR, included.
I do hope you find this feedback acceptable and useful.
Asher
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
If HDR, then what might be the most useful software to achieve realism?
I, myself am fascinated with HDR. If you are going this route, consider SNS HDR*. Those who study HDR, for example HDRlabs.com and even way back in 2010 from Cambridge Color consider it amongst the simplest and the most effective, far better than its peers. The author and architect of SNS HDR, Sebastian Nibisz, has a thread of continuous updates here in OPF. Cem Usakligil uses this effectively here in posts #75 and 80. This Windows program might well be the method that will give you the most realistic result and satisfaction.
I offer that the best uses of HDR seem fall into two categories.
Unfortunately, it's easy to damage pictures with overuse of HDR, that's why one has to look at the picture with view to protecting the natural qualities of the scene, even as one alters the qualities of so many parameters. Still, if one wants the too popular bizarre "grunge" effects, then lesser programs readily deliver!
Asher
*SNS HDR works also in Mac OS X running Microsoft Windows under Parallels.
I, myself am fascinated with HDR. If you are going this route, consider SNS HDR*. Those who study HDR, for example HDRlabs.com and even way back in 2010 from Cambridge Color consider it amongst the simplest and the most effective, far better than its peers. The author and architect of SNS HDR, Sebastian Nibisz, has a thread of continuous updates here in OPF. Cem Usakligil uses this effectively here in posts #75 and 80. This Windows program might well be the method that will give you the most realistic result and satisfaction.
I offer that the best uses of HDR seem fall into two categories.
- The first merely enhances the presence of the scene making it so dimensional that one could walk into it.
- The second use is to make a parody or some kind of abstraction of the scene which is emotionally altered to be lyrical, depressing or some other value.
Unfortunately, it's easy to damage pictures with overuse of HDR, that's why one has to look at the picture with view to protecting the natural qualities of the scene, even as one alters the qualities of so many parameters. Still, if one wants the too popular bizarre "grunge" effects, then lesser programs readily deliver!
Asher
*SNS HDR works also in Mac OS X running Microsoft Windows under Parallels.
Doug Kerr
Well-known member
Hi, Mike,
Pretty, though.
Best regards,
Doug
Naw, this one doesn't look almost like a photograph.
Pretty, though.
Best regards,
Doug
Maggie Terlecki
Moderator
To start off with Michael, let me say that I know it must be crushing to hear that something we thought we did that was very cool may not come across to others as being as wonderful as we thought.
This happened to me very recently with some pictures I had taken of a sunset with rocks in the water. I thought I was the bees-knees when I took them. Although I've taken a lot of photos in the last 9 years, doing the cliché sunset deal was one I had not attempted because, hey, it's a sunset, right? But being in a situation where the sun was going down and it was quite pretty and, of course, my camera at hand. I took these photos that in the viewfinder made me happy. I did not have a tripod so hand held, leaning precariously on small rocks, I took pictures with a more open aperture than I should have and a faster shutter speed etc., etc., etc., So I came home to pictures that were okay, but basically not something to shout about.
What does that have to do with your image? Well, a lot, honestly. It has to do with the enthusiasm of doing something that others have and in our excitement think we may have achieved some great piece of art that everyone will just think is amazing. When in reality we got caught up in the fun and the process of trying to create something special. so, number 1, don't believe you are the first to find that what you did, didn't turn out as exceptional as you hoped. It takes time to look at our work realistically and step away from it and see what is really there. This is something that may be difficult to do for some of us because if you are anything like me, taking an image and then processing it to try and create whatever you felt at that moment or whatever mood you are trying to convey makes you attached to the image. The more time and energy you invest in it, the more attached you get. Now some people don't have this affliction, but I swear to you, many, included myself have it.
So HDR. I have a love/hate affair with hdr because I've seen very few amazingly beautiful images that were so breathtaking that I would love those images to be mine, but I have also seen a gazillion images that are like yours and have broken what could have been a good image. I'm not sure what the appeal is of the more grungy textural type of images. Perhaps people think they look surreal or artistic, somewhat like paintings. I don't think so, but then some people think the painting filters in Photoshop make their images look like paintings also, so go figure.
As Asher says, there are some branches included that really add nothing and others that would be better if there were a bit more, but I gather you wanted us to see this shimmering curve in the river with the soft puffy clouds at an angle with that warm center glow of gold calling us forth almost as a promise of something wonderful down further along the bend. That's the positive of this image.
Now, let's look at what the HDR did to ruin it. I gather there was a bit of wind so although the exposures were taken close together, the trees looks very textural yet blurry, so already we are getting a feeling of unease. Then the clouds. The darkness and texture makes them seem very ominous and makes me want to leave as surely a storm is afoot and nothing good will come from going down that river. The clouds at the very center are quite dark while the sky is intense in its blue. It has taken something natural and made it look very harsh.
HDR is like a beast but a beast that needs to be tamed to be used properly. I don't think all images work well with this method and people tend to use it with a heavy hand creating very contrasty grungy images that pull your eyes in every direction but perhaps not where you actually want people to focus. I like a lot of different types of food but may not appreciate all strong flavors on the same plate fighting for my attention. I may want the hot flavor to be attenuated with something refreshing and some creaminess and balanced out with some acid and something smooth with a bit of crunchy crackle to create a final dish with cohesion and balance. Same goes for photography. You want people to get the concept and move them through your image with composition as a guide, with color or lack of for the mood and light to create depth and excitement. HDR when used on an image such as yours creates an image that has lost its way. It no longer seems to have a nice balance that will lure us.
Now, obviously, it is your work and you may like it this way, and who are we to say otherwise, but being the brave soul that you are, you put it here for us to not only look at but critique. It is hard to look at our photos with the eyes of others as our attachment to them means we think of them a bit like our children, borne of our loins. Our own little creations. I do know from personal experience, some images that I thought I loved years ago, no longer make the cut, while others retain my attention, my love and interest because they were strong to start with.
I would strongly suggest, as Asher has suggested that you do put your original up before the HDR tonemapping and perhaps even allow others to show you how they would interpret your work. Will it be to your liking, perhaps yes or not, but it may show you different options and ideas. Crops will show you what people think are distracting in your image, color work can show you how the final effect can really change the whole mood.
I'm sorry that this is so long as I tend to go on and on, and most people won't read this because of it; it is all about the pictures after all, but I hope you do see the intent is not to destroy your self-confidence but rather to support you to better and stronger work, which I am sure it will do.
All the best,
Maggie
Mike Lozano
New member
Wow, looks like I did get a lot of feedback on this one. First off, I should let everybody know that I'm not a professional photographer, just a lowly amatuer so I'm still learning. I realize that not everybody cares for HDR, but those who do don't always like it overdone & some do. I will admit that I shouldn't have used as much contrast & color saturation as I did, and if some parts of the photo seem out of focus, that's my fault too. So the bottom line is I'm still learning and helpful suggestions is what keeps us going.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Mike,
Commendation on your positive attitude. Could you consider sharing more of the photos of this place, but untouched. Maybe folk could adjust it for you.
Asher
Mark Hampton
New member
Hello Mike,
Your picture's now immediately visible to everyone.
Mike Lozano: Clouds Over The River
Asher
Mike,
truth is i think for me this works...
i could write pages or I could just say keep em coming... it doesnt look like an advert..
cheers
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Mark,
What made you say "it doesn't look like an advert"?
So it works for you. In what way? Is it in that the relationships between heaven and earth are inverted or what? This I believe is intended to be a pleasant scene.
Asher
Mark Hampton
New member
Asher,
lots of images I look at on the net look like adverts - lots on this site look like adverts. this one doesn't.
i like the lady bits in the sky - so for me it is pleasant scene
also the light on the right hand side keeps me in the image.its a visceral feeling i get in the gut from the image.
cheers
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
Now that you say it, I see it too!
Mike Lozano
New member
Thanks for some of your positive feeback all. I will keep them coming.