MF Digital Backs: Gap between what Photographers Expect and What MFRS Deliver?

This post, and a number following, have been copied or moved from another thread, http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=40005#post40005 which was primarily concerned with the HY6 camera. Some early images were shown, but many of the responses drifted away from these images, and onto more general things. So, let's really say what is on our minds.
Although initiated in reference to Sinar, this may apply much more to all the other MFRS. Missed dates, secret real price lists and perhaps a blind spot for the Ferraris coming up behind them in the fast lane. So lets look at this as an industry wide issue. IOW, why would we want MF and what do we want when, and then how do MFRs respect and respond to our needs?

Hi Thierry,

I really have a hard time to understand Sinar. Maybe that is already the wrong way to start my message and I should stop.

But maybe you're interested in honest (possible) customer feedback.

What confuses me about Sinar is why do they display completely over retouched photos in their advertisements? With skin so soft it seems to be smoother than plastic. The color so terribly colorcorrected that a point&shoot camera delivers a more natural looking picture. With photo montage (composed parts) in the picture.
I've been seeing that girl with the strange skincolor from the Sinar ad with the green background often and I just think: What is this? Is this ad really targeted at professional photographers? Are they trying to sell photoshop or cameras/backs?
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_up...rochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf


And why would anyone want to spread anything but the best possible image around? Frankly I don't think these photos of that asian photographer further up are good or that they have a point.

The only frame that looks halfway professional is Jennifer_blue bag.jpg although it's also soft and there are probably less than 1000 different shades of color represented.

I've seen an entire special in the german mag Profifoto about the Sinar Hy6 and the pics already sucked then. They really shut down ANY of my interest into the Sinar digiback. The color I see is grey-brownish. Just like when you're overlaying an image with a colorlayer filled with a greyish brown and then set it to COLOR and take the opacity a bit down.

I'm not sure... but is this REALLY the skintone we should expect from an asian model and from a over 30k$ digital back?

Sorry, but even the Canon 5D and Nikon D3 have better color than that straight from the go.

And it's just not true that these pics only had slight color correction (color destruction) and USM applied. The eyes are whitened, veins removed, skin texture softened, etc. It's easy to tell when one focusses on areas such as armpits, edge of the chin, wrist, legs, etc.

The resolution is also nowhere I'd expect it. It's all soft without structure. I've been attending an event where they showcased the new Hasselblad software and the new H3D 39 II. You could see even the tiniest veins in the eyes in such a clarity it was amazing. Wrinkles have been as clear as a streetmap. In these pictures however the eyes are retouched (pretty bad at that) and soft.

You can get better results with a camera that costs 10 times less easily.

Thierry: I appreciate your time and effort you spend on all these forums and many other vendors would benefit if they had someone like you. Still I think Sinar marketing sucks and will kill the company sooner or later which I think would be a terrible thing.

I would love to see the Hy6 succeed and if it was possible to mount a PhaseOne back to the camera I would immediately get it.

Best
Boris

Boris
As stated above, I don't think I'm qualified enough to comment (I have no comparison files in hand), I just would like to point that commenting images embedded in a 12 pages brochure full of pictures and compressed as low as 3.1 Mb is not a good start.
Such JPEG compression cannot deliver skin other than soft and degraded gradients…

For me, if there's a Sinar fault, is to have such compressed file being downloadable frome their website, because it does bring the opportunity to get bad reviews as you did.

I would strongly suggest, if I may, to check with real tif uncompressed files when available…

For the rest Thierry has already stated that the images posted here were very 1st images posted and that they were done in and for Asia with different cultural references for skin colors than for us Western folks…

BTW I see that you haven't post much here (yet!) so I sincerely welcome you, but please be aware that, as in an Open Forum all comments are more than welcome, they are appreciated, discussed counter argues, but needed. What is not needed is unqualified words like suck and other adjective that doesn't bring any good information, just bad atmosphere… I'm sure you got me there and I thank you for your understanding.

Have a great day!
PS BTW please apologize my poor English, not my mother tongue!

Dear Boris,

I do not wish to enter this discussion or argument about the images posted: I have given my reasons WHY they have been posted by me. They are NOT from Sinar, BUT from my friend Kaisern, and his work is recognized INTERNATIONNALLY. And there was NO intention to show the quality of the back, but some images taken with a very first Hy6. Yes, they have been PP, so what? Yes, they show white skin, so what? They might not please some, and that's fair enough. I would rather see people criticizing negatively here to publish their own images. Now if you wish to continue to criticize these images, you can go on. I have had my fair lesson with my intention and shall be refraining from doing so in the future: I have passed the age to make myself this kind of plaisure and have more important things in life than that.

As for your critic on Sinar's marketing and images used: I agree with you, and I have more than often "scold" at Sinar for this: but that is another story and not my responsibility. May I suggest (and I am serious) to send such a comment about the images used by Sinar to our marketing dpt. (marketing@sinarcameras.com)? That would help much more.

By the way: the link you provided does not work for me and Safari freezes each time when trying to download. Could you re-post the link?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Boris_Epix said:

Hi Thierry,

I really have a hard time to understand Sinar. Maybe that is already the wrong way to start my message and I should stop.

But maybe you're interested in honest (possible) customer feedback.

What confuses me about Sinar is why do they display completely over retouched photos in their advertisements? With skin so soft it seems to be smoother than plastic. The color so terribly colorcorrected that a point&shoot camera delivers a more natural looking picture. With photo montage (composed parts) in the picture.
I've been seeing that girl with the strange skincolor from the Sinar ad with the green background often and I just think: What is this? Is this ad really targeted at professional photographers? Are they trying to sell photoshop or cameras/backs?
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_uploads/bibliothek/k_92_Brochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf


And why would anyone want to spread anything but the best possible image around? Frankly I don't think these photos of that asian photographer further up are good or that they have a point.

The only frame that looks halfway professional is Jennifer_blue bag.jpg although it's also soft and there are probably less than 1000 different shades of color represented.

I've seen an entire special in the german mag Profifoto about the Sinar Hy6 and the pics already sucked then. They really shut down ANY of my interest into the Sinar digiback. The color I see is grey-brownish. Just like when you're overlaying an image with a colorlayer filled with a greyish brown and then set it to COLOR and take the opacity a bit down.

I'm not sure... but is this REALLY the skintone we should expect from an asian model and from a over 30k$ digital back?

Sorry, but even the Canon 5D and Nikon D3 have better color than that straight from the go.

And it's just not true that these pics only had slight color correction (color destruction) and USM applied. The eyes are whitened, veins removed, skin texture softened, etc. It's easy to tell when one focusses on areas such as armpits, edge of the chin, wrist, legs, etc.

The resolution is also nowhere I'd expect it. It's all soft without structure. I've been attending an event where they showcased the new Hasselblad software and the new H3D 39 II. You could see even the tiniest veins in the eyes in such a clarity it was amazing. Wrinkles have been as clear as a streetmap. In these pictures however the eyes are retouched (pretty bad at that) and soft.

You can get better results with a camera that costs 10 times less easily.

Thierry: I appreciate your time and effort you spend on all these forums and many other vendors would benefit if they had someone like you. Still I think Sinar marketing sucks and will kill the company sooner or later which I think would be a terrible thing.

I would love to see the Hy6 succeed and if it was possible to mount a PhaseOne back to the camera I would immediately get it.

Best
Boris

Click to expand...

Boris_Epix said:

Hi Thierry,

I really have a hard time to understand Sinar.

Click to expand...

Here we wouldn't argue. I don't necessarily understand the marketing but I do understand the products more than that. I am very familiar especially with the Sinar P2 Studio cameras and these are elegant, precise and perfect tools for studio work. There's even a guys who shoot with these wonderrs for field work. The digital backs do, TTBOMK, deliver true color and vivid detail. One, of course has to use the software properly. The review in Luminous Landscape indicated that users might need a good tutorial first!

Boris_Epix said:

But maybe you're interested in honest (possible) customer feedback.

Click to expand...

Theirry is here not for any commerical reasons but purely has a help to us to build up MF in OPF. We have a small but growing list of photgraphers here who use Phase One, Leaf and sinar Backs. Thierry does not represent Sinar here and is just trying to be helpful, as you would not represent the MFRS should you post your Leaf or Phase One MF images here too for us to learn from. We try to find out what is both great and also what detracts. That is expected and fair.

Obviously the top pictures on the Sinar Promo brochure is not that of a model untouched, but rather a Sinar camera with a glamorous woman in the b.g., just as one would find prepared for Vogue or similar, according to skin smoothing tastes. The next photograph, however, again by the Asian Photographer, Kaisern, is far less manipulated. Still this is a promo mag and there is no "kosher" or "non-kosher" way to prepare such pictures.

I assure you that OPF will make available select RAW images for all of us to examine with a fine toothcomb once we get our test cameras, one for me here in Los Angeles and hopefully, another for Nicolas Claris in Bordeaux.

Boris_Epix said:

And why would anyone want to spread anything but the best possible image around? Frankly I don't think these photos of that asian photographer further up are good or that they have a point.

Click to expand...

Boris, don't you remember all the odd pictures Kodak released for Promo of their Canon and Nikon DSLR's the 14 series. Canon has done the same.

Boris_Epix said:

The only frame that looks halfway professional is Jennifer_blue bag.jpg although it's also soft and there are probably less than 1000 different shades of color represented.

Click to expand...

Thierry pointed out that these are not prepared for delivery, just for giving us a glimpse. I'm sorry they do not meet what you might expect. I will revisit them.

Boris_Epix said:

I've seen an entire special in the german mag Profifoto about the Sinar Hy6 and the pics already sucked then.

Click to expand...

Are they online too? I'll see if that is in our bookstores. If it is as you say, then that's a diasppointement. Did they know how to use the software? What were the problem with the images besides "sucked"? Is it just the color problem you discuss? Couldnt that be a CMYK printing issue of the magazine or else they had no idea how to process the images perhaps. Have you looked at RAW files?

Boris_Epix said:

They really shut down ANY of my interest into the Sinar digiback. The color I see is grey-brownish. Just like when you're overlaying an image with a colorlayer filled with a greyish brown and then set it to COLOR and take the opacity a bit down.

I'm not sure... but is this REALLY the skintone we should expect from an Asian model and from a over 30k$ digital back?

Click to expand...

Boris, would you realy be turned off so much that you wouldn't even bother to get a competent demo and use the camera yourself. I know when I test cameras that expensive, I like to see all the choices for doing the job with available systems using subjects and lighting important to me. Surely, considering there are so few 33MP backs to choose from, one would not reject a sophisticated digital back because someone showed what may be just their own inadequate use of it. Yes, it might make me have concenrs, but still, I'd want to see first hand and not miss out on what might just be one of the best backs ever made.

Boris_Epix said:

Sorry, but even the Canon 5D and Nikon D3 have better color than that straight from the go.

Click to expand...

Canon and Nikon, for sure give different color. They are limited in resolution. I hope we can answer you assertion with objective data in the coming months.

Boris_Epix said:

Thierry: I appreciate your time and effort you spend on all these forums and many other vendors would benefit if they had someone like you. Still I think Sinar marketing sucks and will kill the company sooner or later which I think would be a terrible thing.

Click to expand...

Thierry is here purely as a moderator and supportive friend. To those who are not aware of this, he is a sles rep for hte Far East and not for the USA. In any case we already have principal guys from Apple Aperture, Adobe Lightroom and many other corporations, but they wear that hats of individuals.

We do not have business relationshops with anyone. No one is charged and no one pays! That's how OPF is.

Now regarding Phase One and Leaf, I will be reviewing those backs too. So in preparation I'd value so much if you or anyone else might be able to dig up fashion, glamor, architecture, wedding or other images to set up discussion on thse different systems in new threads.

I will spend the time to go over all the pictures carefully and it will be a wonderful opportunity to see the quality of competing backs.

Thanks again for contributing to this discussion.

asher

I think that WHATEVER you post there will be comments.
I did several mini reviews and always there was someone who said it was garbage because I did not use the lens he would have used.
When I did, someone responded I should try a Zeiss f2.0 lens from 1970 on the 5D and that I would than have a good comparison, yeah sure

We must be glad that people like Thierry is posting and commenting on things and not flame him for his choice.

I think it's great that today in the online communities people like Thierry respond and let us see what they are up to.

Going back to my response
I was not commenting in a bad way, but the camera is brand new and I think (PERSONALLY) that for example a low key portret will show much more about what the system is capable off.
I know that I shoot much more low key since I made the switch to the more dynamic MF system

So Thierry I meant with all good intents.

Greetings,
Frank

Thanks for your kind comments, Frank!

Frank Doorhof said:

I think that WHATEVER you post there will be comments.
I did several mini reviews and always there was someone who said it was garbage because I did not use the lens he would have used.
When I did, someone responded I should try a Zeiss f2.0 lens from 1970 on the 5D and that I would than have a good comparison, yeah sure

Click to expand...

I hope that was not me, the only Zeiss f 2.0 I have is a 28 mm Distagon and was from about 2002!

Frank Doorhof said:

We must be glad that people like Thierry is posting and commenting on things and not flame him for his choice.

Click to expand...

We do not often have "flamers". It's a rare thing for OPF! When there are hypercritical remarks, we all are taken back. If you read my critique of Rachel's shot of a waterfowl on a new England river with snow on one bank, you will see that I myself can be extraordinarilly strong in pointing out how an image does not meet its purpose and the photographer's intent. However, I've been helpful all along so I can measure that I have probably earned sufficient credit to be able to essentially "rip that picture to shreads"! There is no malice, or hint of arrogance in my critique as I am not dismissive and show total respect. That is what we try to to in OPF. We have no wish to hold back the toughest criticism and it is worse than useless to dish out unearned praise. Still, we can be careful and courteous. Most of OPFers recognize that a post is either to get help, to show what can be done or do share some insight. It may be self-evident that we need to nurture those who actually post images for us to put on our screens and try to damage with curves, levels etc. I love to see how resilient files are as that tells me something about the competance of the camera. If the images are in some way short of what's expected, let's talk about that, but together with what works well too.

As far as the detail in the eyes is concerned, lack of blood vessels can be simply the result of the girl having slept well and the light being a 1/2 to a stop over exposed! If the images can be had RAw, obviously that would be good too. However, I cannot expect them to come, just maybe they will

I must admit I was a little shaken by harsh criticism of Thierry's delivered images. Still, I'm glad we do get people's views. Even if its "wrong", at least it let's us know what gaps need to be closed.

The facts of the matter are already decided. The Sinar Backs are as great as I believe they are or they are not. We can show pictures that demonstrate the full dynamic range and faithful color without artifact, or we cannot.

We'll know soon enough!

Asher

hi Frank,

I agree that low-key situations would be great to have, but then you have to forget about me providing them from here from Asian photographers. That's something which is almost never done or seen.

But am sure that there will be some good photographer in the near future able to provide such shots (may be you Frank?)

Frank Doorhof said:

Going back to my response
I was not commenting in a bad way, but the camera is brand new and I think (PERSONALLY) that for example a low key portret will show much more about what the system is capable off.
I know that I shoot much more low key since I made the switch to the more dynamic MF system

So Thierry I meant with all good intents.

Greetings,
Frank

Click to expand...

So,

What do we want, images posted, nobody comments, nobody looks at, nobody bothers, or people to give their time in composing replies concerning what they see in the images?

I have seen no flaming (I mean look at the nonsense re the maxtor/wd drives. It starts off with the wrong brand name, then halfway though goes into a Maxtor slagging match). As far as I can see, the comments made here have been no different than many made on other threads.

I am inclined to copy much of this thread from Boris's post downwards to an area where we can really discuss things, since I feel that other than comments that conform with some unknown standards of compliance, we are being gagged. A number of side issues have been raised, not related to the initial images, but these are possibly more important.

But then, I may just go and feed the chickens (they don't like the cold weather, either.)

Best wishes,

Ray

hi Ray,

for me it is very simple, what I expect (for not saying "want"):

- respect of the photographer and his style (which was not the case, since the photographer's aptitude, talent, professionalism and style have been put in doubt), and then "using" the style argument to put in doubt the quality of the whole and comparing it with other brands.

- respect of the model (which was not the case, since the models "hairy" face as well as the teeth have been criticized) and knowledge that most of the top-models have "bad" skin and teeth which are never white or as white as expected, and that this is ALWAYS done in post-production

- respect of the initial intention.

In this, David's, and Frank's comments (post 6 & 20) have been right, appreciated and understandable, IMO, saying simply that they cannot comment on the quality of the back, with correct remarks about what was meant to be achieved with the shot, and suggesting to try situations stretching the limits of the back concerning DR, shadows and highlight details, etc ...

But what bothers me is being almost "scold" for having the nerve to posts such images or to read bashing of the photographer or the model.

Except for the previous, I am ready to get any critic (negative, well understood) and even say it when I agree to what is criticized: in this respect see my comment about Sinar's marketing images, which myself I have criticized many times to my colleagues.

But that is only my opinion.

Best regards,
Thierry

Ray West said:

So,

What do we want, images posted, nobody comments, nobody looks at, nobody bothers, or people to give their time in composing replies concerning what they see in the images?

I have seen no flaming (I mean look at the nonsense re the maxtor/wd drives. It starts off with the wrong brand name, then halfway though goes into a Maxtor slagging match). As far as I can see, the comments made here have been no different than many made on other threads.

I am inclined to copy much of this thread from Boris's post downwards to an area where we can really discuss things, since I feel that other than comments that conform with some unknown standards of compliance, we are being gagged. A number of side issues have been raised, not related to the initial images, but these are possibly more important.

But then, I may just go and feed the chickens (they don't like the cold weather, either.)

Best wishes,

Ray

Click to expand...

Hi Thierry,

It is all, only opinions. Different cultures, different folk, expect or want different things. I do not know if I was alone in not knowing what you or Asher/others expected. I tend to spend a lot of time choosing the correct words, in my mind, to express my viewpoint. But it can be completely misinterpreted. It is this sort of discussion that can be important, but possibly not in this thread.

(I've just realised that you are a moderator for this forum, how can we summarise what has come out of here concerning the image/camera, not the photographer/model? - you are wearing too many hats ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

hi Ray,

Well, I was asked to join here, by Asher, and I accepted, after a certain time, and was then informed by Asher that he would "put" me as a moderator.

I am certainly inclined to speak about Sinar, but you will never see me speak negatively about other brands or companies, like nobody has never seen me doing this on other forums. Nor will I ever criticize a photographer for using another brand or even try to convince him to change. If asked about technic or other issues, then I shall answer, with my knowledge and believes, but not more.

But if being moderator here causes problems, I have nothing against being a simple member.

In any case, I wish to keep my name and signature clear and open for everybody, included the "Sinar" name.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Ray West said:

Hi Thierry,

It is all, only opinions. Different cultures, different folk, expect or want different things. I do not know if I was alone in not knowing what you or Asher/others expected. I tend to spend a lot of time choosing the correct words, in my mind, to express my viewpoint. But it can be completely misinterpreted. It is this sort of discussion that can be important, but possibly not in this thread.

(I've just realised that you are a moderator for this forum, how can we summarise what has come out of here concerning the image/camera, not the photographer/model? - you are wearing too many hats ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

Click to expand...

Thierry Hagenauer said:

Dear Boris,

<Big snip>

By the way: the link you provided does not work for me and Safari freezes each time when trying to download. Could you re-post the link?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Click to expand...

Well your comment here tells probably more about sinar marketing than what I wrote. You can't open a link that goes to your own companies webpage Just kidding.

To get to the document I was talking about:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/newsletter/009_12112007/
then go down to section 4

There they talk about: We are pleased to announce that the new brochure of the Sinar Hy6 System can now be downloaded (PDF/3.09MB).

And the word downloaded leads to this link:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_up...rochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf

Best regards
Boris

All OPF members are welcome to put a simple reference to their own work below their signature. That's standard policy.

Let's talk images. Don't feel constrained but post a cut out of the image to demonstrate what you refer to. Not unfinished nails! Talk shadows if you wish becasue the images are shifted to the right or detail or that color, with examples. We do need more images, that's clear. I hope Thierry you are not put off and will get us some neurally exposed images to see the splendor of a full dynamic range and color delivered with the best Sinar backs.

Asher

I'm really sorry if I was a bit too forward and open with my critique and sentiments. I'm not a native english speaker so maybe I have a hard time to get my point(s) across in a politically correct and friendly way.

Just to set some things straight: I was ONLY commenting the pictures linked at the beginning of this thread. I downloaded them all and zoomed in. Do the same, look at the eyes, chinline, armpits, ellbows, etc and you'll see what I was talking about. Anyway... let's forget about the images for now.

And yes, sure I made a remark about the green-backgrounded girl in the lowres 150 dpi PDF but only because I saw it printed 10 times or more and it just doesn't look right - even printed.

What would I expect from a mfdb over a DSLR if not:
- BETTER color
- more sharpness
- more dynamic range?
- several STYLES / color profiles

Probably nothing... because in about all other areas the current DSLR's lead the way.

- Faster framerates
- more accurate AF
- better connectivity
- less trouble
- more choices in RAW convertors
- wireless transfer of pics (Canon & Nikon)
- better LCD's
- better battery duration
- less bulk
- way better price
- more transparent marketing (and real world tests and pictures available)
- weather-proof
- WINDOWS SOFTWARE AVAILABLE
- etc.

And with the lower price of the DSLR bodies you can afford more than one body so you have a backup and don't have to switch the lenses (less dust on the sensor).

Thierry, please believe me, I am SWISS and we tend to be very neutral and friendly. I have no bad intentions. Quite the contrary. I like the Sinar brand. I even worked with the 6MP back on a sinar largeformat camera a couple years back and there was no comparison with DSLR's back then.

It hurts me (just kidding) to see my intentions being missinterpreted as flaming/bashing.

I am frustrated with the entire MF marketplace. As a professional photographer/retoucher I don't feel like a customer when I deal with mfdb companies. I feel like an employee. They don't give me the information/support I need, often there are no pricelists available and there's no proof that the specs are actually matched by the equipment. Only big bold marketing promisses. They will even go and tell me to use an apple computer because they have no Windows software available.

Hasselbald for example will tell you they only have one color profile because they identified the best colors for you for EVERY situation (so they say). Well... but what about I WANT TO DELIVER DIFFERENT STYLES TO MY CUSTOMERS? I want 50 different looks/styles pre-configurable in the back so the art director will see a close rendering of the final colors/look on a display when I shoot tethered. One day they support DNG, the other not anymore or only through workarounds. The camera takes different backs, then suddenly not anymore. Contax died, Rollei is almost dead too, Mamiya 645 I don't like (I still love my RZ67 pro II though).

PhaseOne and Leaf give you completely unusable LCD's and tell you: That's the best available. Well... why don't they buy a container full of point & shoot cameras with 10 times better 3" LCD displays that cost less than 200$ and disassemble them? I don't mind if the back is going to cost 30'200$ if the screen is usable outdoor (where you actually need the screen).

I am so tired of telling the client / art director: "It sucks now... but believe me... after 10 hours of retouching it will look fabulous." Maybe I should open up a new thread for this discussion as I'm starting to drift away from the already away-drifted discussion

Just for the record: I've owned the following cameras during my digital part of the career: Canon 1Ds, 1Ds MK2, Canon 5D, Hasselblad H1 with PhaseOne P25 back (which I'm glad I could sell for a good price). So I'm in the market for a new back/camera. I AM YOUR (MFDB companies) POSSIBLE CUSTOMER. Why do I have to fight for attention, quotes, test-pictures, features, when it should be exactly the other way around?

Shouldn't we get a bit of love for 30'000$ ?

And no tongue please

It's fine Boris, I'm Swiss too (double citizenship French/Swiss)! So I understand the "neutrality" and friendly" part well!

Just put yourself in the "feet" of somebody like Kaisern: he is really a well-known and many times awarded photographer around in Asia.

But let's forget this now.

Just one remark about "marketing promises": I do hope that you don't mean Sinar with this, because ALL our specifications published in our documents or brochures are strictly met, always. That's one of our policy which we hang on very strictly. In the contrary of making false claims, it is even recognized by the photographic world that Sinar is very often under-stating the real performance of its products. I will give a few examples:

- the frame rate of the eMotion 54 LV (or the previous e22) is given at 1 frame/ 1.2 sec. I suggest to try it out and you will see that you end up with closer to under 1 frame / 1 sec.
- same with the eMotion 75
- same with the ISO rating: make a side-by-side comparison of all the MFDBs from all brands, and you will notice that for the same ISO setting you need to give at least 1 -stop more light for the others. in other words 50 ISO on a Sinarback is ISO 100 + on another back. This has been mentioned by many users on another forum, when making the comparisons.

and so on: I could mention and list here many more for which we under-state purposely in order nto be on the "safe" side and to not "disappoint" the customers.

I also don't think we have ever forced or told somebody to buy a Mac: it happens that Mac is the standard in the communication and imaging world. Not in all fields, but nevertheless it is the standard. However, Sinar has the Windows version in preparation with Exposure, sometime next year (don't want to give any false date).

Boris, marketing images used in brochures are one thing, IMPORTANT I admit and often neglected by Sinar (because they/we are Swiss), BUT....: if somebody is interested in a high-end product with such a high investment, I expect him to try it out, make comparisons in its own environment, test it in a real-life production, etc ... This is how you get a good or bad feeling about a product.

If you are in Switzerland, I can only suggest you to contact Alexandra Kempf: I know her since many many years, she is certainly not the one telling lies or bullshit, and she is available for her customers or potential customers almost 24 hours a day, whenever they need her.

Also, if you need specific information, you can always contact me here or then PM/email if you prefer: I ALWAYS answer within 24 hours (maximum), Sat/Sun included.

Best regards,
Thierry

Boris_Epix said:

Thierry, please believe me, I am SWISS and we tend to be very neutral and friendly. I have no bad intentions. Quite the contrary. I like the Sinar brand. I even worked with the 6MP back on a sinar largeformat camera a couple years back and there was no comparison with DSLR's back then.

It hurts me (just kidding) to see my intentions being missinterpreted as flaming/bashing.

I am frustrated with the entire MF marketplace. As a professional photographer/retoucher I don't feel like a customer when I deal with mfdb companies. I feel like an employee. They don't give me the information/support I need, often there are no pricelists available and there's no proof that the specs are actually matched by the equipment. Only big bold marketing promisses. They will even go and tell me to use an apple computer because they have no Windows software available.

Hasselbald for example will tell you they only have one color profile because they identified the best colors for you for EVERY situation (so they say). Well... but what about I WANT TO DELIVER DIFFERENT STYLES TO MY CUSTOMERS? I want 50 different looks/styles pre-configurable in the back so the art director will see a close rendering of the final colors/look on a display when I shoot tethered. One day they support DNG, the other not anymore or only through workarounds. The camera takes different backs, then suddenly not anymore. Contax died, Rollei is almost dead too, Mamiya 645 I don't like (I still love my RZ67 pro II though).

PhaseOne and Leaf give you completely unusable LCD's and tell you: That's the best available. Well... why don't they buy a container full of point & shoot cameras with 10 times better 3" LCD displays that cost less than 200$ and disassemble them? I don't mind if the back is going to cost 30'200$ if the screen is usable outdoor (where you actually need the screen).

I am so tired of telling the client / art director: "It sucks now... but believe me... after 10 hours of retouching it will look fabulous." Maybe I should open up a new thread for this discussion as I'm starting to drift away from the already away-drifted discussion

Just for the record: I've owned the following cameras during my digital part of the career: Canon 1Ds, 1Ds MK2, Canon 5D, Hasselblad H1 with PhaseOne P25 back (which I'm glad I could sell for a good price). So I'm in the market for a new back/camera. I AM YOUR (MFDB companies) POSSIBLE CUSTOMER. Why do I have to fight for attention, quotes, test-pictures, features, when it should be exactly the other way around?

Shouldn't we get a bit of love for 30'000$ ?

And no tongue please

Click to expand...

Boris, is that a joke?!

I really don't need such comments, really not! That is only provocating.

I was unable to link to this, period. Your link was not complete on MY browser, period. I have tried for abut 2 days by clicking this link, but each time it stopped and froze.
And I did not know which image in particular you meant.

NOW your link is complete and I can access it.

I think it shows in the contrary that I am at least trying to follow up and take your remarks seriously by checking out what was meant.

Best regards,
Thierry

Boris_Epix said:

Well your comment here tells probably more about sinar marketing than what I wrote. You can't open a link that goes to your own companies webpage Just kidding.

To get to the document I was talking about:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/newsletter/009_12112007/
then go down to section 4

There they talk about: We are pleased to announce that the new brochure of the Sinar Hy6 System can now be downloaded (PDF/3.09MB).

And the word downloaded leads to this link:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_up...rochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf

Best regards
Boris

Click to expand...

Hi Thierry,

All links that Boris provided worked fine for me, they are the same url link_was_http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_uploads/bibliothek/k_92_Brochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf

(I dislike this opf smart ass shortening of url's, hiding the real location 'here', and so on, it takes too much effort to sort out what is going on)

The links worked fine on my windows box (but that's a none standard communication device I guess - this is not so much a joke, more a 'piss take')

BUT, the pdf is one of the slowest things ever. I thought it was not loading at first, from Boris's original post yesterday, or whenever. I expect it was OK for you the second time, since much of it was in your local cache.

The pdf file is just over 3.5MB, so maybe the Sinar servers are running a bit slow.

Best wishes,

Ray

I've just refreshed my link page, it takes over 2.5 minutes to download the file. I would normally not wait that long. The bit I would want is page 11. Maybe there is a better way.

Hi Thierry,

When I split the original thread and moved this to here, my intention was to open the discussion to perceived problems with all manufacturers, not just MF, not necessarily just photo gear, but it has been altered to be concerned primarily with MF digital backs.

afaik, there are not many users/potential users of digital backs here, but you are here, so I think we must be careful in distinguishing between comments made in general not being thought of being aimed at Sinar in particular - I know what I'm trying to say her, it's not coming out right.

I guess it's like talking about Biros, when we really mean 'ball point pens'.

Best wishes,

Ray

Have you seen the photo of cereal on a bowl of milk.

Does it look the same as the actual life cereal on a bowl of milk on your table at 6:30am ?

I think that the images in the Sinar brochure are brochure images, there are other ways to find out what is the IQ of a digital back. I think that if you are spending $30k plus lenses the best way to do it is finding out this other ways and not decide after looking at the brochure.

It is always a risk to be a first adopter of a new product, but I think that Sinar has a long line of backs, so IQ must be at least as good as the last backs. I would try to find testimony of photographers that use Sinar backs.

I think that all digital backs give you a fantastic image, the difference is so small that the best way to choose is to consider all aspects, for example:

*Back and camera system (In my case I had a Mamiya AFD before the back, so I could not buy a H25, for example, since this model doesn't come in Mamiya flavor)
* Back camera communication: My AFD can be shot from C1 while tethered/ Leaf backs cant, for example.
* Rental lens availability: if you live in a big city and want to be able to rent a $5k 28mm, or a Cambo Wide etc. check the local rental house what brands they carry.
* Service from distributor and maker / knowledge base on makers website?/ up grade path .
* Future of the model/brand: If a back has a large piece of the market is a good thing for me because it guarantees that they are going to be there in 5 years time.
* Does the system have all the components I may need, for example, a 35mm or a 28mm?
etcetera

I have never heard about Kaisern and don't care about him. But I do care for the camera systems we have available as professional photographers.

Maybe we have to be more general and let Sinar out of the picture. I think it's a problem with the ENTIRE marketplace and not just Sinar. And that will bring the market down. Hasselblad is not locking out competition for no reason. Probably they're struggling already now. And they are one of the bigger players in the field. I'd be surprised if any of the mf companies survived the next 5 years. Instead of getting cheaper, a significantly better product and get a bigger user base the prices are climbing up steeply and features come slowly.

In my opinion a back that costs about 4 times as much as the next offering down the latter (like a Canon 1Ds MK3) which is also used by professionals should be not only be significantly better but PERFECT.

The lcd screens on about every MF back is just a major disappointment compared to some of the 3" lcd found on lowest level consumer point&shoots. Sure you can tether in studio, sometimes on location, but not always. Wanna know how I worked with the PhaseOne P25 back when I started? I had a Canon 1DsMK2 to set up the lights, check the histogram and get the impression if the setup was right. Only then I would start shooting the P25 because it's LCD sucked so bad. I do the same when shooting film as the Canon cameras are so convinient and fast (but I use a Canon 5D for that now because it's smaller and lighter). No need to wait for polas. But still... would be better if the lcd on the backs was at least as good as the new 3 inch offerings from canon/nikon/etc.

As for the sensors I think the difference is getting smaller too with the DSLR's. The next sensors will probably be somewhere up over 50 Megapixels or what... and still be bayer pattern. In magazine print size the difference is barely visible and can be probably accounted for the biggest part to better mf lenses. For even smaller pixels crammed onto the same size chip we don't need MFDB's I guess. How about trying some other ideas. Like FOVEON (with a bigger sensor the limited resolution currently available would be improved) or the FUJI idea with the two different size of pixels to give more dynamic range.

Anyway, I'm so tired of back manufacturers telling me: You have to test the back yourself. Why does every photog need to test the back individually just to get a BASIC understanding of the file comming out of it? Is it so hard for the back makers to get decent pictures with their backs so everybody needs to test it themselves?

Back makers need to show WHY we need their products. Marketing is about convincing people that they need your product. Marketing is not TRY OUR THING AND SEE IF YOU LIKE IT.

How backward is this?

But maybe a couple snaps would cold down interest:

I don't know about you guys but the skin tones on the following LL testshot shot with a e75 or e54 back don't appeal to me. They scare me off. And I constantly hear how great the skintones are supposed to be with the e75. It looks flat and monochromatic to me.



Don't you think it would make more sense to spread the word, hand out to photographers with a perfect product and trying to get the product (MFDB's) more affordable? Back makers would be able to also win satisfied DSLR users that just don't know what they're missing. How is it now? Back makers only get the most unsatisfied DSLR shooters that want to step up with the quality of the file and will put ANY effort to make a (more) cumbersome and bigger system work.

If I'm looking back for the last 5 years of MFDB development... what did we get beside more resolution and many incremental upgrades?

Cheers
Boris

Thierry Hagenauer said:

It's fine Boris, I'm Swiss too (double citizenship French/Swiss)! So I understand the "neutrality" and friendly" part well!

Just put yourself in the "feet" of somebody like Kaisern: he is really a well-known and many times awarded photographer around in Asia.
<SNIP>
I also don't think we have ever forced or told somebody to buy a Mac: it happens that Mac is the standard in the communication and imaging world. Not in all fields, but nevertheless it is the standard. However, Sinar has the Windows version in preparation with Exposure, sometime next year (don't want to give any false date).

Boris, marketing images used in brochures are one thing, IMPORTANT I admit and often neglected by Sinar (because they/we are Swiss), BUT....: if somebody is interested in a high-end product with such a high investment, I expect him to try it out, make comparisons in its own environment, test it in a real-life production, etc ... This is how you get a good or bad feeling about a product.

If you are in Switzerland, I can only suggest you to contact Alexandra Kempf: I know her since many many years, she is certainly not the one telling lies or bullshit, and she is available for her customers or potential customers almost 24 hours a day, whenever they need her.

Also, if you need specific information, you can always contact me here or then PM/email if you prefer: I ALWAYS answer within 24 hours (maximum), Sat/Sun included.

Best regards,
Thierry

Click to expand...

Hi Boris,

I think the only change will be when a mobile phone company decides to take over a large format camera maker. To get a bit of young blood into the organisation, to know how to create a market, and move fast. But, then, that needs young photographers too. Unfortunately, few of the 'established' companies in any field of endeavour are doing well today, it's a sort of natural evolution.

This reminds me a bit of the advent of the digital watch, how that effected the traditional watchmakers/repairers.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, in a few decades, it will all be software.

Best wishes,

Ray

Yes, my LUMIX is so much smaller than my digital back, the batteries are also much smaller and last a long time.

I can also frame the photo with the LCD on my LUMIX, something that my P25 does;t let me do.

There is rumors that next generation LUMIX will get to 22mp, so if they include a 16--300mm f 1.4 ZOOM that's it, no more Nikon, Canon Phase, Leaf or Sinar...

Also you don't need "pro" flash set up (you can save up to $5k) since the LUMIX comes with built in flash system that is so convenient that works out of the same battery, no need to plug or anything...

Boris,

you are probably one of the few arguing like this, that you don't want to test the gear before buying. That's very strange for me, but I respect your opinion.

Could you also tell me what Sinar has done to you to continue criticizing, now with this image shot by Michael Reichmann? I would suggest you ask him why the model has such skin, may be it was like this. And then you could read his report and be fair to write here as well what he has written about the e75.

There are tausend of images out from other brands and which look good or then bad, which do appeal or which don't. May be you could change and choose also some others, instead on insisting on Sinar.

Best regards,
Thierry

Boris_Epix said:

Anyway, I'm so tired of back manufacturers telling me: You have to test the back yourself. Why does every photog need to test the back individually just to get a BASIC understanding of the file comming

out of it? Is it so hard for the back makers to get decent pictures with their backs so everybody needs to test it themselves?

Back makers need to show WHY we need their products. Marketing is about convincing people that they need your product. Marketing is not TRY OUR THING AND SEE IF YOU LIKE IT.

How backward is this?

But maybe a couple snaps would cold down interest:

I don't know about you guys but the skin tones on the following LL testshot shot with a e75 or e54 back don't appeal to me. They scare me off. And I constantly hear how great the skintones are supposed to be with the e75. It looks flat and monochromatic to me.

Cheers
Boris

Click to expand...

Boris.

Here some links especially for you: they are all working either with eMotion 22/54, or eMotion 75 or SB 54.

Have a look and let's see if this appeals to your taste, and if this time the SB's quality seems better to you.

www.sarahsilver.com

www.justincooper.net/english

www.tangential.de

Best regards,
Thierry

Boris_Epix said:

In my opinion a back that costs about 4 times as much as the next offering down the latter (like a Canon 1Ds MK3) which is also used by professionals should be not only be significantly better but PERFECT.
Boris

Click to expand...

Hi Leonardo,

But when Panasonic gets the software to give the same widescreen/depth of field look as the p25, what then? Software development and the like increases more or less exponentially, what camera were you using 20 years ago? It is already getting cheaper to use computer graphics instead of actors, folk are buying 'digital frames', and so on. Adapt or die out, it's evolution. ;-)

However, in these particular days it is interesting. The old school film guys having to cope with this new fangled maths type stuff and buy gear that they know in a couple of years will be worthless. Not a pretty situation.

Best wishes,

Ray

Hi Thierry,

Was it just a slow download of the Sinar pdf brochure, or was it something else, yesterday?

Best wishes,

Ray

Boris,
Don't look now but you're being a techie boor.

Hi Ken,

You going to add something useful, any experience of mf backs, whatever?

Best wishes,

Ray

those skintones look like an Adobe RGB file printed in an srgb colour space.