To frame, or not to frame, that's the question.

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 15, 2008

Seeking some opinions.

Should we add a frame on the images that we post on line, and if so, how to do it best?

IMHO a frame can (should) help to isolate the image from it's surrounding space on the web page. It should do so in a manner that's effective enough to achieve the goal, but not claim too much attention by itself and become a distraction.

Bart

Cem_Usakligil · Nov 15, 2008

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
Seeking some opinions.

Should we add a frame on the images that we post on line, and if so, how to do it best?

IMHO a frame can (should) help to isolate the image from it's surrounding space on the web page. It should do so in a manner that's effective enough to achieve the goal, but not claim too much attenton by itself and become a distraction.

Bart

Hi Bart,

I agree with your mission parameters. But how to achieve them, indeed? I used to use a black frame occasionally, but I have come to realize that it tends to "restrict" the image in an attempt to contain our eye within the frame. Now I am avoiding it. A slightly off-white space around the picture would be the most neutral frame but how off and how wide?

Cheers,

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 15, 2008

Cem_Usakligil said:
Hi Bart,

I agree with your mission parameters. But how to achieve them, indeed?
[...]
A slightly off-white space around the picture would be the most neutral frame but how off and how wide?

Hi Cem,

I'll leave some room for others to give their view on the matter, in order to not influence the discussion too much in an early stage. However, I will provide some food for thought as to how wide the border could/should be, and how bright, and which color.

The human visual system (HVS) seems to adapt to the average brightness variations within an angle that subtends approx. 1 degree. So for normal reading distances (say 250 to 300mm), that would suggest that a border should be at least 5.24mm wide (20 pixels @ 96 PPI) to achieve a luminance transition without significantly influencing our brightness impression of the actual image. That minimum needs to be expanded if the brightness difference between edge and background is large, and the brightness of the border would have to be somehere in between the two.

One could conceptualize a border of 2 x 20 pixels wide with a gradient between background and edge brightness. One could also expand the concept to the background and edge colors.

Bart

Kathy Rappaport · Nov 15, 2008

One more thing to do

I love framed images. But if I framed every image I was thinking of posting, there'd be few to none. I prefer to frame them but I think they each need their own so I guess I could put an action on them. There are limited places I post them. Time is money!

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 15, 2008

Kathy Rappaport said:
I love framed images. But if I framed every image I was thinking of posting, there'd be few to none. I prefer to frame them but I think they each need their own so I guess I could put an action on them. There are limited places I post them. Time is money!

Hi Kathy,

An action could go a long way! It could even blur/resize/sharpen for Web display (say 800 pixels on the long side), and then add a border of some sort.

Bart

Andrew Stannard · Nov 15, 2008

I normally put a simple frame around image I post online - On a website I find that the eye can sometimes be too easily directed by surrounding text, icons etc, so something to stop the eye wandering can be of assistance.

For my website I've settled on a photoshop action that puts a frame around the image and adds a copyright. I think it can help give someone a better idea of what a print might look like once matted. My action produces results like this: Click Here

Ideally I'd like to put a larger border, but then overall size is always an issue with web pages and I like things to fit on a 1024x768 screen.

Cheers,

Asher Kelman · Nov 15, 2008

Presenting images online: Framing Photographs and Copyright placement.

Andrew Stannard said:
I normally put a simple frame around image I post online - On a website I find that the eye can sometimes be too easily directed by surrounding text, icons etc, so something to stop the eye wandering can be of assistance.

For my website I've settled on a photoshop action that puts a frame around the image and adds a copyright. I think it can help give someone a better idea of what a print might look like once matted. My action produces results like this: Click Here

Ideally I'd like to put a larger border, but then overall size is always an issue with web pages and I like things to fit on a 1024x768 screen.

Cheers,

Hi Andrew and Bart,

Let's see what other frames there are. For now, Bart, could you comment on the picture frame from the physiological conceps Andrew has shared. With other ideas, we'll have this in out online gallery if we can do it. The gallery is being set up right now. So could you add your specs and comments and we'll try to have several choices.

Just provide the action you propose and a link to the picture so we can eventually add frames and your © automatically.

We'd welcome other ideas.

Asher

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 15, 2008

Asher Kelman said:
Just provide the action you propose and a link to the picture so we can eventually add frames and your © automatically.

We'd welcome other ideas.

Hi Asher,

Just a quicky, a works in progress: OPF-ForumFrame.atn.

I made it in CS3 on a Windows platform, but I think it should be reasonably compatible with other versions. Nothing fancy, nothing final, just to get some reactions. Some steps, such as the initial resizing blur and sharpening, need refining for specific file sizes.
It is made for image display on a white background! Other backgrounds need tweaking of the Hue/Saturation step in the action.

Instead of an adaptive frame, one can also choose to have a uniform one, e.g. a somewhat lighter version of the average image color. I might like that better in the end, we'll see what others come up with. A more 3D version is also possible, but nothing too distracting.

At the end of the action, one can create or call one's own Water-marking action.

Bart

Michael Fontana · Nov 16, 2008

hmmm
I personally don't like to much these frames arround photos in the internet - and BTW in real life as well. In my book, a photo is just something like a vue out of the window, in other words, a cut of something. The sensors cuts of the image-circle too....

A problem to be thought, when having auto-framing here in OPF is, that not all images will play well with the color of the frame; a high-key-image might need a different frame than a low-key, just a example.
but YMMV.

Ken Tanaka · Nov 16, 2008

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
Seeking some opinions.

Should we add a frame on the images that we post on line,.... ?

Bart

For what it's worth I can't think of any cheesier or more pretentious artifact of "digital photography" than the faux frame / faux film border. It blares "Amateur" louder than a siren.

Asher Kelman · Nov 16, 2008

Ken Tanaka said:
For what it's worth I can't think of any cheesier or more pretentious artifact of "digital photography" than the faux frame / faux film border. It blares "Amateur" louder than a siren.

Hi Ken,

Well put! Forget for the moment about pretentiousness, just for the moment. I do agree with you on this.

We're going to have galleries and pictures will be linked. I hate tight bold black frames or anything complex or any matt except white or off-white with some tint. Maybe in the galleries we'll just have a plain white or else plain black background. I'll be getting some design help.

If people are going to make frames for the forums separately from the galleries, it should be simple, non-pretentious and not take on an air of importance or distract from the picture. The only purpose of the real frame is to protect the image and separate it from the wall. That's what we want here. No frame or else one giving a clean milieu so it can breathe.

So a soft shadow may be all that's needed or white matt and then a thin simple black framer just a shadow. Whatever it is, it should be simple and not be important.

Asher

BTW, Bart, the ATN just appears as code. how is it downloaded?

Michael Fontana · Nov 16, 2008

Ken Tanaka said:
It blares "Amateur" louder than a siren.

Ken,
never heard that expression before, and like it.
On top of it, I agree

Asher

for some galleries, a gray fits well as general background; the eyes can better concentrate on the image as they aren't glared by the white of a background.

Drop the ATN on the PS-icon....

Kathy Rappaport · Nov 16, 2008

Funny, when I was in Santa Fe a few years back Matt Koslowski was teaching a Photoshop class. Every one of the images from that class had a frame. Matt lectured on likening using PS no differently than someone using developer in a darkroom and all photos has borders....Matt is one of the most respected photographers today in the world of photo finishing....

Mike Shimwell · Nov 16, 2008

The image that kicked this discussion off was bordered, unusually for me, because I was playing around with ideas for giving some separation from the surrounding white of the page - in this case particularly because I didn't want the top edge to blend in. I mat prints with white or off white board, but of course the rebate gives a dimensional separation and a shadow if the incident light is directional.

So what to do on the web - my first attempt was much to heavy (cheers Doug), but alternatives might be:

No border

thin black

image derived

My website simply sets a black background, which makes separation easy for most images.

So is there an ideal way to present on the web, does it depend on background colour? It's not really about trying to create a faux frame or being pretentious, just giving the image some separation (oh and having a bit of fun!)

Mike

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 16, 2008

Ken Tanaka said:
For what it's worth I can't think of any cheesier or more pretentious artifact of "digital photography" than the faux frame / faux film border. It blares "Amateur" louder than a siren.

Yet there are some very good professional photographers who publish on the internet, and they use frames.
Are they demoted(?) to "Amateur" status because of that? Or does the type of frame they use make a difference?

Food for thought.

Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 16, 2008

Asher Kelman said:
BTW, Bart, the ATN just appears as code. how is it downloaded?

Maybe it depends on the OS platform, in Windows it just downloads as a file. It has to be placed in the appropriate location for the version of Photoshop and loaded into the list of actions.

Here it is as a ZIP file, maybe that helps?

Bart

nicolas claris · Nov 16, 2008

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
Maybe it depends on the OS platform, in Windows it just downloads as a file. It has to be placed in the appropriate location for the version of Photoshop and loaded into the list of actions.

Here it is as a ZIP file, maybe that helps?

Bart

Thanks Bart
on Mac a control click on the link and "save file as…" works fine!

I tried it it works well, in CS3 though I have a general error when reaching the "script" line looking for a Javascript file which cannot be found…

When click OK, the rest of the script runs well… I wonder what is missed with the missing Javascript file;-)

Is it a special file of your own or should it be installed within CS3 originally? (yes, my CS3 is official and not a hacked one!)

BTW:
- afai remember export for the web does erase all data in the exif…
- compression at 60 is really destructive, I think 80 is the best compromise for web display

PS when downloading the original link, one gets "OPF-ForumFrame.atn.dms" file…
.dms is to be manually deleted before trying the action. The Zip version is clean…

PS 2 Of course, my comments are for info, as any action can be customized by each one…

PS3 Original image must be more than 800 pixels in width, including vertical ones…

Thanks for this contribution Bart!

nicolas claris · Nov 16, 2008

Ken Tanaka said:
For what it's worth I can't think of any cheesier or more pretentious artifact of "digital photography" than the faux frame / faux film border. It blares "Amateur" louder than a siren.

My point too, if you ask me!

No border! (by all means…)

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 16, 2008

Nicolas Claris said:
I tried it it works well, in CS3 though I have a general error when reaching the "script" line looking for a Javascript file which cannot be found…
[...]
When click OK, the rest of the script runs well… I wonder what is missed with the missing Javascript file;-)

Is it a special file of your own or should it be installed within CS3 originally? (yes, my CS3 is official and not a hacked one!)

Nothing special (for a Windows CS3 installation), just the "File|Automate|Fit image..." menu command, set to 800x800 pixels. It probably is the failure of Adobe to provide a platform/language independent parser for the actions.

BTW:
- afai remember export for the web does erase all data in the exif…
- compression at 60 is really destructive, I think 80 is the best compromise for web display

Yes, it's just a choice for fast loading webpages, but it's adjustable, and actions can be changed to be interactive.

Bart

nicolas claris · Nov 16, 2008

Thanks Bart
corrected… now the action stops when text layer file is created:

If we can debug the Mac version together, I'll post it here for other Mac users…

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 16, 2008

Nicolas Claris said:
Thanks Bart
corrected… now the action stops when text layer file is created:

Yes, one should edit to put one's own name in it and/or choose a different position/size for the Copyright notice (or whatever else).

Bart

nicolas claris · Nov 16, 2008

Ok guys here is Bart action but corrected for Mac

OPF-ForumFrame_Mac.atn.zip

I only did re-save/replace the "File|Automate|Fit image..." menu command, set to 800x800 pixels.

You will have to customize the © text and it's placing as well. Exactly as Bart's original action.

Michael Fontana · Nov 16, 2008

I had the same javascript-error as you had, Nicolas, with PS-CS-2.

nicolas claris · Nov 16, 2008

Hi Michael

did you have the error with mine or Bart's version?

If it's mine, I guess it is because the path is in French (can't change that;-) then do as below…

If it's Bart's, just do as he suggested:
just replace/resave the "File|Automate|Fit image..." menu command, set to 800x800 pixels.

Michael Fontana · Nov 16, 2008

Nicolas Claris said:
Hi Michael

did you have the error with mine or Bart's version?

If it's mine, I guess it is because the path is in French (can't change that;-) then do as below…

If it's Bart's, just do as he suggested:
just replace/resave the "File|Automate|Fit image..." menu command, set to 800x800 pixels.

Its been with your version, Nicolas...
I could try to change the pathes; that usually isn't a problem...

nicolas claris · Nov 16, 2008

yes, it takes a few seconds…

But thanks for the info, it means that my version will be running only with French versions of CS… no good!

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 16, 2008

Nicolas Claris said:
yes, it takes a few seconds…

But thanks for the info, it means that my version will be running only with French versions of CS… no good!

I think it is only that call to the "Fit image..." menu command, the rest should be independent of paths, unless Adobe doesn't interpret the localized menu commands in actions (that would be stupid programming of them).

Anyway, the topic is still Frames..., let's have opinions/suggestions/examples.

Bart

Andrew Stannard · Nov 16, 2008

Hi,

I've uploaded my frame action now as well: Link

As with Bart's this has been produced on CS3, Windows.

A few notes:

- It's a .atn file, so steps for downloading/installing are the same as Bart's.
- It currently assumes image is already resized
- There is a basic sharpen step
- The action ends without flattening the image, so you can edit the copyright text at the bottom.

Quite happy for people to use/modify this as they wish. Or I'm happy to make modifications if requested. If anyone does make modifications to this action then I'm also happy to host the new versions.

Cheers,

doug anderson · Nov 16, 2008

Bart: I haven't seen too many frames I like. They all seem to look kitschy, or at least unworthy of the photos they define. They seem to come from some other kind of digital imagery than photography. I'm trying to think of an analogy: bronzing a gold medal comes to mind.

D

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Nov 16, 2008

doug anderson said:
Bart: I haven't seen too many frames I like. They all seem to look kitschy, or at least unworthy of the photos they define. They seem to come from some other kind of digital imagery than photography.

Hi Doug,

I agree if you're referring to e.g. fake wooden ones. There are however also other, non-kitschy, ones, but they seem to be rare ...

Bart

To frame, or not to frame, that's the question.

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