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  #1  
Old September 8th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Mary Bull Mary Bull is offline
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This morning I walked out among the students arriving at the campus of the middle-plus-high school which adjoins the street I live on. I was shooting RAW files with my Canon G2 for the first time. Down the sidewalk I followed a little redheaded girl, who was rapidly pulling away from me. Her hair was bright as a new penny in the morning sun. Somehow, the G2 perceived it as nearer to auburn in color.

Never Late for Class



I had the Rainier "blurred people" thread on my mind, but I didn't have the shutter speed set slow enough. When I saw the image on my screen, I thought, ah well. At least I can try to make the colors nearer to those I remember--the sunbeams were so long and so bright on the child's back, and then she walked into the shade of a building. She was really moving on.

I'm trying to learn how to Upload RAW files and then manipulate them in LightZone.

So that's what I did with the TIFF that Canon's RAW converter made of the file. And I had a good time trying to see what LightZone might let me do. I couldn't manage the regions tool. But I did tweak the color balance a little. And then I discovered Gaussian blur. Wow! This lets you completely blur the image out of recognition. Here's the one that suited me best--although, to tell the truth, the sharper original was more to my liking. It has the most appeal to me. Anyway, below is my blurred little redhead.
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  #2  
Old September 8th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Hi Mary,

Your second photo (the blurred one) does not show. Just to warn you so that you can edit the post in time <smile>.

Cheers,

Cem
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  #3  
Old September 8th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Mary Bull Mary Bull is offline
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Blurred Little Redhead

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Old September 8th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Mary Bull Mary Bull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem Usakligil
Hi Mary,

Your second photo (the blurred one) does not show. Just to warn you so that you can edit the post in time <smile>.

Cheers,

Cem
Thanks, Cem. Something went wrong with my c&p of the Flickr URL. I had wrongly thought that perhaps there was some limit to the length of a post, when I saw that it didn't show in the preview.

So I was composing a Quick Reply to my own post when you sent this heads-up to me.
I went over to Flickr and did the c&p again. As you can see now, it worked.

Mary
<probably still be making mistakes and learning from them the rest of my life>
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  #5  
Old September 8th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Default Gung Ho, Mary!

Mary, I'm so impressed! A week ago you were wondering what camera to get that could use RAW, since then you have a new CF reader and you are working in RAW!

Now your creative juices are flowing. I thought that the key figure in the image is you as represented by your shadow. So I cropped and processed accordingly.



Asher
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  #6  
Old September 8th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Mary Bull Mary Bull is offline
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Thanks, Asher.

I do like what you did with the photo. You've brought a little more focus to it and made it tell the story better.

I am having such a good time playing and learning, and the weather is cooler, so that I was comfortable on that morning walk. But I couldn't keep up with the kids, who had their own goals, quite separate from mine.
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  #7  
Old September 8th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Martin McLean Martin McLean is offline
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Glad to see you shooting and sharing, Mary. Very nice capture. Good call on the crop and focus Asher. You two make a great team.

Please keep posting Mary, will me interesting to watch you grow in your new craft.

-M-
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  #8  
Old September 9th, 2006, 04:25 AM
Tim Armes Tim Armes is offline
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Hi Mary,

It's really great to see you experimenting like that. It's undoubtedly the best way to learn the sorts of things that retouching can achieve.

As you've seen, even if you don't like the final result (you preferred the sharp version to the blurred one), you've discovered something new that may be appropriate for another image late on.

Keep playing!

Tim
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  #9  
Old September 10th, 2006, 09:36 AM
StuartRae StuartRae is offline
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Quote:
Down the sidewalk I followed a little redheaded girl, who was rapidly pulling away from me.
This leads me to ask a question which I'm sure must have been discussed on numerous occasions before.

I assume from the above that you were unable to ask permission to take and use the shot?

How, then, can one justify posting an image of this girl on the internet? I think if I were her father I would not be best pleased.

This is in no way a criticism of you in particular Mary, just a general observation.

Regards,

Stuart
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  #10  
Old September 10th, 2006, 11:32 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartRae
...How, then, can one justify posting an image of this girl on the internet? I think if I were her father I would not be best pleased....
Hi Stuart,

Being the father of a 13-year old daughter myself, I can see clearly where you're coming from. Besides, I am very privacy minded myself. So all together, one would assume that I'd say that I agree with you. But I certainly don't in this particular situation. The girl in this picture is not recognosiable unless you know her personally and reconise her clothes and bag. Even if you would recognise her, this is not a "compromising" picture we are talking about. If we would start questioning the ethics of taking pictures like this, then we could only photograph landscapes and still lives (and even then not always). Honestly, I don't see what is wrong with this picture. But I appreciate you asking this question which I'd like to see being answered by other forum members. You see, if one sees other pictures which are posted in this forum and elsewhere on the net (inluding the pieces of art by famous photograprs), many more are less PC than this one where you can clearly see the faces of people who are sometimes children. I don't believe that all those pictures are published after asking for a permission, especially the street life kind of pictures. So is this an issue, really? I personally think not, but I'd like to hear other opinions <smile>.

Cheers

Cem
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  #11  
Old September 10th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Don Lashier Don Lashier is offline
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I agree - certainly a back shot is no problem.

Quote:
You see, if one sees other pictures which are posted in this forum and elsewhere on the net (inluding the pieces of art by famous photograprs), many more are less PC than this one where you can clearly see the faces of people who are sometimes children. I don't believe that all those pictures are published after asking for a permission, especially the street life kind of pictures. So is this an issue, really? I personally think not, but I'd like to hear other opinions <smile>.
I agree also, but am somewhat careful because of the current attitude of some. I pretty much restrict my shots of recognizable people, child or adult, to public events (parades, celebrations and such) and have never had a complaint.

- DL
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  #12  
Old September 10th, 2006, 12:12 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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By pulling away, I doubt that Mary meant, showing she didn't want her picture taken!

I ask for permission for children. One needs permission to sell the picture, but not otherwise.

It is not courteous to take a picture against someone's will, unless it's something newsworthy or htat one wishes to give editorial comment on in ones blog/website/publication.

Whenever someone objects, I generally delete the picture.

I ask permission for children first most times. Adults either way.

Asher
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  #13  
Old September 10th, 2006, 12:15 PM
StuartRae StuartRae is offline
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Cem,

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I agree with you that on the face of it there are no problems whatsoever with this photo.

However, it is a sad aspect of modern life that one must be very cautious about photographing children. In Mary's eyes she was a child, and may also be in the eyes of the law.
AFAIK, any photo of a child may only be taken with the express written permission of its legal guardian.

What an unpleasant world we live in, when innocence can be twisted in the name of political correctness.

To digress slightly, the days of the traditional "dirty old man", who treated with a mixture of ridicule and sympathy, are gone. cf the opening lines of Jethro Tull's Aqualung.

Regards,

Stuart

Edit - I should point out that while I was sitting at my PC trying to find the right words, Don and Asher had already replied.
Also, in light of Asher's post, I may not have been entirely correct about the legal aspects of photographing children.
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  #14  
Old September 10th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartRae
...To digress slightly, the days of the traditional "dirty old man", who treated with a mixture of ridicule and sympathy, are gone. cf the opening lines of Jethro Tull's Aqualung.
Hi Stuart,

Boy am I glad to hear that there are other Jethro Tull fans out there <big smile>.
Well, I agree with all you have written in your second post and promise not to be so "thick as a brick" in the future <LOL>.

Asher: I agree that one should ask permission before taking pictures of children in case they form the explicit focus of the picture. Otherwise, where does this PC-edness leave us if we just want to take snapshots of a town we happen to be visiting and at the same time children are present in the frame? Should we also ask for their parents' signatures just to be sure? I hope you'll realise that I am exaggerating this issue on purpose <smile>, but who is to say what is wrong and what is right? Will there be a time in the future that grown-ups will shy away from shaking hands with the friends of their children when they come visiting just to be on the safe side? Even worse, will they ever forbid their children bringing along their friends (yet more exaggeration!)?. Where does one draw the line?

Please don’t “flame” me for asking these questions, I am just looking for some guidelines. AFAIAC, Stuart has voiced my feelings much more elegantly in his answer above <smile>.

Cheers,

Cem
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Old September 10th, 2006, 12:40 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartRae
Cem,

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I agree with you that on the face of it there are no problems whatsoever with this photo.

However, it is a sad aspect of modern life that one must be very cautious about photographing children. In Mary's eyes she was a child, and may also be in the eyes of the law.
AFAIK, any photo of a child may only be taken with the express written permission of its legal guardian.


Regards,

Stuart
Hi Stuart,

Yesterday I took shots of a lovely little girl but got permission from both her parents. They have now asked me to visit them in Barcelona!

I don't know that it is illegal to take a picture of a child. I'll find out. I doubt that it is, unless they are in a school yard or one is blocking their way or frightening them in some way.

Parental permission is needed for school pictures. I don't know if this is because the school doesn't want to get problems with the parents or whether it is illegal. Certainly it is accepted practice.

We should not allow ourselves to be limited by this just ask for permisson if the face is recognizable.

You might have noticed that I have been editing out the word daughter, or my child, or her birthday wherever I see it. I put a note in red: edited for privacy

Save me the problem and use replacement words even for adult unclothed figures and never use common words that porn seekers search for. This is nothing to do with P.C., I am just protective even when some post show errors of judgement.

I'm not concenred about posting picutres of children, jsut make sure that in the post you use the words "at a recent family even" or "go cart", swimming champion" and so forth.

There are gezillions of sites that we should rarely pop up for such a search with out current vocabulary.

Let me know if you see someone giving details like b day party at St. Catherines Church such and such a date.

Bad!

Otherwise we are doing fine.

It is great that people are aware of these issues and that reflects the sort of people you have encouraged in this community.

Anyway, back to Mary's picture, I thought that Mar's shadow is great in that it implies "intent"!

Whenever one sees that it helps to focus the meaning of a picture.

I'm impressed at Mary's rapid increase in capability and mastery of all this stuff.

Asher
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  #16  
Old September 10th, 2006, 01:17 PM
StuartRae StuartRae is offline
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Quote:
Will there be a time in the future that grown-ups will shy away from shaking hands with the friends of their children
Cem,

At the risk of hi-jacking Mary's thread, I'd just like to post this link. It made me unbelievably sad to read it.

Stuart
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  #17  
Old September 10th, 2006, 01:47 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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This is absolutely immoral and cowardly to criticise and humiliate this man !

Of course, he should be told privately that it was against the school policy. Now if there was no wirtten policy for the school that the vicar had knowledge of, then for sure in the USA, at least, he would, I believe, have grounds for substantial damages from the School and church.

There is an injunction in the Bible against "taking the dust of a poor man's head". That means humiliating someone. It really is a disgrace and shows lack of decency to have misused this man so.

Still, we should not allow ourselves to become unkind to children. Always take the signal from the parent.

If the parent says go an kiss everyone good night, then that's O.K. However, one should not allow this otherwise, unless you want to dress up in a red Santa suit in about 8 weeks time!

Asher
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  #18  
Old September 10th, 2006, 03:15 PM
Mary Bull Mary Bull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman
By pulling away, I doubt that Mary meant, showing she didn't want her picture taken!
Asher
A better choice of words by me might have been "rapidly moving away."

By "little girl," I meant recognizably a girl and slight in stature. She was part of a crowd heading for the administration building which serves both the university and the university campus hs.

Of course, to me as a former teacher and old woman, anyone under thirty is a kid, and anyone under 21 is a child. Sorry I didn't write with clearer definition, in my description of my experience.

I emphasized "rapidly moving away" to indicate the difficulty I was having to get the G2 to register the image.

Same problem I had with the little Eastern cottontail earlier that same morning.

Of course, I have no idea of her age. There were people who were obviously young enough to be middle-school students. I did not focus on any of them.

Everyone was in a hurry, and the subject of my snapshot could as well have been a college student or an employee. She came from behind me from the thoroughfare; I took her rapid walk as she overtook and passed me as a desire not to be late.

To all: I told Asher ahead of time by PM that I did not intend to shoot any recognizable figures or faces, and when I sent the file to him PM, I thought this image was not recognizable.

I think it is certainly not recognizable in my blur, or in Asher's retouch of the picture.
And only by the backpack/clothing in the sharper view. Even those are not unique.

All the same, the discussion has given me pause. I shall probably not take any more pictures of people I don't know.

Mary
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  #19  
Old September 10th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Bull
...All the same, the discussion has given me pause. I shall probably not take any more pictures of people I don't know.
Hi Mary,

Sad to read this statement really. I have jumped into this discussion for achieving quite the opposite, that we should not yield to the illogical demands of politically correctedness.
Please don't get disappointed. Ask for permission of your subjects when in doubt, they probably won't deny it. Above all, keep on taking pictures with the free mind of an artist !

Cheers,

Cem
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  #20  
Old September 10th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Mary Bull Mary Bull is offline
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I'm too shy to strike up a conversation on the street or in a store with someone I don't know, let alone ask for permission to take a picture.

There was the most beautiful old gentleman, Saturday morning, in the grocery store. It's my favorite grocery, where I do 95 per cent of my shopping.

In an ethnic neighborhood. You can literally hear languages from Vietnam, Iran, Korea, China, Mexico, Bosnia, and I don't know how many others not recognizable to my ear in there. And the store carries the products to suit the tastes of its varied lot of customers.

The old gentleman was ahead of me, or behind me, on nearly every aisle. The next check-out line over from me, too.

Frail, so neatly dressed, beautifully groomed white hair and mustache, skin a pleasing light mahogany in color, bent back. I judged him to be older than I am. He was totally intent on his shopping and then on unloading his cart onto the check-out counter.

How I longed at least to see him in the camera's view-finder. But I did not take it from my side.

Later, he was at the vehicle beside my car. I'm a slower walker, and besides had been a little longer at the check-out line.

I could not bring myself to speak to this fine old gentleman, even in a public place, with many other people around, and with him not 6 feet away at his own car trunk*.

*"boot" to you continental and British Isles people. <she said with a smile>

Mary
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