California based photographer hits the BBC news!

[John_Nevill]

A Californian based photographer hits the BBC news tonight for her images of crying children.

It was said that she gave toddlers lollipops and snatched them away and shot their reactions. The result was a portfolio of images depicting children with tears running down their faces. She also emphasised the effect through post processing.

Lobbyists are saying its child abuse.

Is this art, exploitation or just a means to make a few shekels?

 

[Don Lashier]

This was on the news here a week or so ago. I can't say that I condone this, find it a bit sick in fact, but wouldn't equate it to child abuse.

Interesting thing is that this turned the blogosphere into a bunch of crying babies also

- DL

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

I think that it can be classified as the art of exploitation for making money.

Cheers,

Cem

 

[Don Lashier]

I think that it can be classified as the art of exploitation for making money.

So where's the line? If it had simply involved putting children in front of a camera with studio lights where they are prone to cry anyway (as any studio photographer will tell you), would that have been ok?

I find the idea of a show featuring crying children exploitive of the audience without even considering lollipops.

The furor is only likely to make the show more successful. Perhaps even revealed on purpose - such are the marketing/promotion tactics these days.

- DL

 

[John_Nevill]

Don,

I suppose its the old adage that bad publicity is better than no publicity.

It only filled the dead donkey slot on prime time news. It didn't topple Tony Blair's current fiasco!

 

[Asher Kelman]

So Tony Blair has another Fiasco? What is it?

Yes, he made errors of judgment, but he's done more good than bad. He at least realizes that there is a real threat.

He states a coherent policy which requires new attitudes to migrant populations by both sides. Each culture must have a minimum commonality of valuing the lives of others as important. Foreign and fanatical manipulation of disaffected youth to make them destructive cannot be tolerated and the social and religious breeding grounds for such venom must be addressed, without bias.

He has at least articulated in a decent way some of the major issues of our time.

Further, he and many in the USA, have the recognition that religious fascistic philosophies can't be simply debated, they must be fought with every means available. These are battles to be faced now or later on with eve more untold despicable horror and catastrophe.

IMHO, he's misunderstood and a man before his time.

As to the current fiasco, what was it?

Asher

 

[Will_Perlis]

"Lobbyists are saying its child abuse."

Most likely only the ones who've never been around small children. I don't see the art in her work but I sure as hell can't equate taking a lollipop away from a kid to any sort of "abuse". That's arrant nonsense. Anyone with any experience with children knows they can go from zero to full-blown tantrum in milliseconds and over the most trivial of reasons.

What I'd be far more worried about is the severe masochism exhibited by any adult exposing themselve to crying kids more than they have to. They probably will go on to watch The Price is Right or Family Feud on TV.

 

[Don Lashier]

... probably will go on to watch The Price is Right or Family Feud on TV.

LOL, but I'd vote for Soupy Sales.

- DL

 

[Will_Perlis]

"...they must be fought with every means available."

Asher,

Yes, but in the future, perhaps also intelligently. Enthusiasm doesn't eliminate a need for thought.

 

[Asher Kelman]

"...they must be fought with every means available."

Asher,

Yes, but in the future, perhaps also intelligently. Enthusiasm doesn't eliminate a need for thought.

Intelligence is insufficent for survival. We need that, drive, creativity and wisdom based on knowledge and reasoning.

In the USA, we have another problem. A man is elected because people think he is merely rich and charming. What about knowing geography, the carbon cycle, that little midges can sting the horses arse?

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

"Lobbyists are saying its child abuse."

Most likely only the ones who've never been around small children. I don't see the art in her work but I sure as hell can't equate taking a lollipop away from a kid to any sort of "abuse". That's arrant nonsense. Anyone with any experience with children knows they can go from zero to full-blown tantrum in milliseconds and over the most trivial of reasons.

What I'd be far more worried about is the severe masochism exhibited by any adult exposing themselve to crying kids more than they have to. They probably will go on to watch The Price is Right or Family Feud on TV.

I think if one gives the kid photographs of crying and laughter, that perfect! It is part of the teaching process.

Still, I wouldn't keep repeating the trick or the kid will be grabbing it's food and hiding behind some bush to devour it!

Asher

 

[John_Nevill]

I think the issue here is "intent", I have absolutely no problem photographing kids crying, its realism. I agree with the statement that most kids cry in front of a studio lights etc.

But if the photographer makes them cry, then surely this is staging, which, I don't condone.

Although I agree there's far worst imagery out there that should be given more attention to erradicate.

Asher, on the Tony Blair fiasco, he had seven of his ministers resign yesterday, Its all to do with his plans to leave office and dragging it out. This is similar to the Thatcher affair, just prior to her leaving office. Our political parties have a funny way of ousting their leaders.

 

[Don Lashier]

But if the photographer makes them cry, then surely this is staging, which, I don't condone.

... or method acting for kids?, but I don't condone it either.

Our political parties have a funny way of ousting their leaders.

At least you can oust them. We've only managed that twice in 230 years.

- DL

 

[Rob.Martin]

It's kinda funny, but

with a wry smile I write this.

I remember the furore over companies like Disney throwing dogs off cars and filming it for the show, and setting up different animals in circumstances (like a cat in water) that they really didn't enjoy. There was a famous Aussie documentarian who threw his dog off his truck many times, with the commentary "gee, whiskers has jumped off again" (they clearly edited out the boot up the dogs butt)

Back on topic, IMO this is not child abuse, but it's kinda typical of how a lot of photography is produced. I saw a Nat Geo contest winner one day and was impressed that he was in the right spot at the right time. In the credits he said "I sent them up and over the hill 20 times before I got it right". Is putting babies in silly costumes when they are asleep and tucking them into tight containers abuse (citing a famous photographers work).

The do gooders can get carried away, but one must be careful that the actions don't escalate into "Prick them with a pin, they'll cry harder" or worse.

All in moderation is a good catch cry. But alas, no one listens.....

Cheers

Rob

 

[John_Nevill]

Rob, ironically I was thinking along the same lines, but with monkeys. A classic and very popular UK TV show from the 80's was renowned for coercing chimpanzees on iceskates through hoops of fire!

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

They shoot horses, don't they?

Rob, ironically I was thinking along the same lines, but with monkeys. A classic and very popular UK TV show from the 80's was renowned for coercing chimpanzees on iceskates through hoops of fire!

Do you know the final scenes in Kurosawa's samurai film, Kagemusha? A clan's army is completely wiped out by superior firepower, and the final scene shows bloodied men and horses lying in their final agonies. It was done by tranquilizing the horses so that they lay down, filming them as they struggled to their feet, then looping and reversing liberally. The results were pretty graphic, and the film had real trouble being distributed in the US against animal rights complaints. Our censors did not believe that the horses were all fine, once the simulated blood and gore was washed off them. Of course, you wonder what it was like to be an extra in such a scene, playing dead next to a slowly waking and wobbly horse.

scott

 

[Chris Fraser]

I discussed Greenberg's work with a friend a while back, when this was first in the news. We felt that technically this series of portraits of crying children is interesting -- she's achieved an interesting effect with the lighting and color. But to me the overall artistic impact of the series isn't particularly great.

So here's a way of thinking about how she produces the images: Morally, yanking lollipops away from kids is a bad thing to do, definitely a minus, though a minor one. Now if this minor moral demerit were outweighed by great artistic merit, then I'd say the photographer's approach was unfortunate but morally acceptable. But in the case of this particular series of images, in my view the work might not have enough merit to outweigh the minor child abuse involved.

I think the theme of children throwing tantrums is a great idea for a series. But in my view the work would be much stronger if the photographer just got permission to hang out with families for several weeks and captured the kids losing their temper in a natural family setting.

 

[Will_Perlis]

"What about knowing geography, the carbon cycle, that little midges can sting the horses arse?"

Any good leader can find experts on those subjects. The trick is having a sufficiently sensitive BS detector so one knows what experts to listen to. Harry Truman had such, the current crop doesn't. Another trick is knowing the difference between determination and pathological perseverance. IMX, that applies to solving a lighting problem as well as to politics.

 

[Mr.Lauren MacIntosh]

How many of you have photographed children ,and you and I know its harded to get a child to smile than to cry, some children do it on que or it feels like it: you can go nuts try-ing to photograph them ,I read that Item also I did not find anything state-ing she grabbed lolly pops away from childreen to foto them crying???

 

[Will_Perlis]

You can find the comment about lollipops on her site (and on plenty of others. Look in the bio and press section.

http://www.manipulator.com/