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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Color on an LCD

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Please keep on topic. This is for Calibration/Profiling LCD Displays. Fun posts, greeings" "Laybeack cafe", "Profiles for an Epson Photo Printer to that thread.

Just my own view:

1. Buy an colorimeter. If that is an option for a modest sum, start a new thread for that!

That will get you where you want.

If you need the best prints and your monitor is profiled and you view it in opimal light, with no bright colors on you or in the room then:

2. Use a grey card or WhiBal card in all your shots.

We'll start a new thread for that on how to use that.

3. Try not to adjust colors, just brightness and saturation until you can profile your monitor.

4, Read Andrew Rodney's Article

Asher
 
I have been trying to get my head around this whole calibration/profiling thing. I have a Mitsubishi Diamondcrysta RDT178V, and run Win2K. The color gurus suggest that the only possible adjustment that can be made on LCDs is the brightness. So why is it that calibration software allows LCDs to be calibrated using RGB controls? Why don't they simply disable everthing except brightness when LCD is selected? That way, they could be calibrated correctly, isn't it?

I can understand monitor manufacturers putting in those controls - more doodads mean more dough!

Or am I not getting it?

Kumar
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
You are stuck in nomenclature!

Read Andrew Rodneys articel it will help. But as I have said above, the profiling will reassign all colors, each with their own RGB composition, saturation and brightness so that a perfect color file will preceptually seem pretty damn perfect to most many of us.

As I wrote above, this is called a profile. A list of mathematical conversions that are stored in your graphics card or, if that is available in the LCD monitor. These are called LUT or look-up tables.

You are not altering the RGB characteristics of the LCD. However you are creating a profile so that the window through which you look at your file appears to be clear and not like a pierce of colored glass.

But read Andrew's article and then return and see if there are more questions!

asher
 

Dierk Haasis

pro member
1. With the help of Microsoft's new colour management tool select the Viewsonic profile as default.
1a. Go to Start->System tools [currently no idea how the entry is called on an English XP]
1b. Double-click Color
1c. Go to Devices
1d. Select Displays and then your monitor
1e. Click Add
1f. In the following dialogue select the monitor for your monitor and click OK
1g. Select the profile in the Color Profiles box and clcik on Set as Default.

2. Do the same for your scanners and printers listed under Devices but select their appropriate profiles (not the monitor profile, not Adobe RGB, not sRGB).

3. You may still need to set the profiles manually in any colour managed application you have, like Photoshop (not Elements!) or QImage.

4. sRGB is only a good choice if you go for Web output; it's the lowest common denominator.

It is commonly said that Adobe RGB is wider than sRGB, which is wider than many CMYK gamuts. Well, that's right - up to a point. There are colours in most CMYK gamuts exceeding AdobeRGB (even ProPhoto) as there are many more colours in almost any RGB gamut exceeding most CMYK gamuts. Since the colour models in question [additive vs. subtractive] are compatible only in 'for all practical purposes' mode you will never see on paper what your monitor shows.

Since many folks here decided to get much deeper into a very technical topic than is appropriate ATM - Mary, do yourself a favour: don't get a colori- or spectrophotometer unless your nephew has a few hours to set everything up so you don't have to do anything but load your photos, work on them and put them out - let's get a few basic things off:

- RGB and CMYK are device-dependent
- it follows that both are relative, not absolute
- a 255 or 100% [respectively] value does not say anything about the actual colour
- SOHO printers are often labelled RGB-printers, they aren't
- the drivers of SOHO printers translate from RGB to CMYK
- hence any application before the driver sees the "printer" as RGB
- Anybody interested in colour as a technical topic should get a book by Bruce Fraser, his Real World Photoshop CS2 or his Real World Color Management.
- Unfortunately when it comes to colour management and ease of use the Mac is far ahead of Windows.

I stand with every warning I ever gave towards Mary, particularly the very first one: Don't. The whole discussions shows the problem, instead of helping Mary we confuse her [if you are not confused by all our half-hearted attempts to tell you what's right you should check your medication]. There's more than one good reason whole books have been and are written about colour management - either we come up with a concise way to relate what's in them or we should just leave it and let Mary do the most basic [= most important] steps.

Will a full-fledged colour management for Mary solve the original problem? Perhaps. Will it be overkill [read up on what she tells us about how often and for what purposes she prints]? Definitely.

Some of us are even confusing calibration with profiling - which is not a moot semantic point*, it's about the very technology at the heart of the matter - we are, however, telling Mary what she has to do to ... what?

To end on a really sarcastic note, here's the ultimate tip for you: Get a CG-series Eizo, get a colorimeter from X-Rite, get one of the new HP Z-printers. Then ask your nephew to set everything up correctly; that you do every 3 months. I guarantee you perfect results.



*I have come to the conclusion, lately, that any serious discussion about semantics has an underlying very real problem.
 

Dierk Haasis

pro member
The last post, which I leave unaltered for posterities sake, may be a bit over the top. What bugs me is that we are in a board using 'Entry' as a qualifier, we are trying to convey the practical basics here, I guess. This is, so to speak, the 101 on Digital Imaging.

With colour management we are already in a more advanced course, most tips on what to do and how to obtain are post-grad courses. Mary is a beginner.


On a personal note, I think it is much better to help her out with creative input, like the tip to photograph cats and children at their eye level, than to delve into one of the most un-creative, technical issues at hand. A topic most photographers and graphic artists gaven't understood half-way.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I'm trying to develop a way of dealing with 3 things which make threads harder to follow:

1. Off Topic (O.T.): Here the solution is easy if enough steam has generated behind a sub-topic, we move these posts to their own threads

2. Social joking around: These will eventually be removed to a companion thread. "Related chats" which will be one ongoing thread on how we handle this.

3. Complexity: Transfer to the appropriate section and leave a link here.

4. Argumentative: Where the text in our opinion, diverts attention from a simple view, then thatt ext will be changed in color to slate grey. If it better belongs in another forum, then it will be transferred, but the best thing is for posters to realize that ahead of time and post advanced argument in another place.

We have to leave it to the best judgement of each poster as to what is the minimum needed to get the job done.
 

Mary Bull

New member
Asher, I have tried.

The physical presentation at Andrew's website makes it impossible for my eyes to resolve his text. I have just now sent him an OPF PM explaining the issues which I have with it.

They are unique to his website. I have no such problems reading here at OPF.

Mary
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Mary,

Go back to that article and cick on the print option on the actual top of that article (not the Print on your browser.

It will open up a full page which is easy to read.

Asher
 

Mary Bull

New member
1) Font displays too small on my screen. Looks about 8 pt, even with Opera 9/View zoomed to 200 per cent

2) Insufficient contrast between font color and font background color. My eyes will simply not resolve the text characters with the light blue font I see there.

3) The HTML colors glare at me, making it extremely difficult for me to maintain focus on a single lline of text.

Mary
 

Mary Bull

New member
Asher, the page display is so bad that I cannot even find the Print option on it.

See my comments in my just-previous post.

Mary
 

StuartRae

New member
I stand with every warning I ever gave towards Mary, particularly the very first one: Don't. The whole discussions shows the problem, instead of helping Mary we confuse her

Dierk,

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say.

Regards,

Stuart
 

Mary Bull

New member
Warning: SOT component to this post

Stuart,

Of course, I now have the Windows Color Management Tool and a profile.

SOT:
However, the PM e-mail replies (7 of them) which I sent you Sunday-Tuesday, have all turned up as Returned Mail about an hour ago. Mostly they dealt with my efforts to use WiziWYGXP. I think its inability to save a color profile was due to my lack of a color driver for the monitor (since downloaded and installed, of course).

I am taking the liberty of putting this information in a forum post, in case my e-mail to you about the bounces is also returned. Tried to send you an OPF PM, but the software said it could not find you.

Anyhoo, now you know. < said with a smile >

Mary
 

Mary Bull

New member
Progress Report

Dierk,

1) I have done the basic things you recommended.
2) I shall go back and reset to Adobe RGB.
3) Monitor is looking good and running well.
4) I'll be in touch by private E-mail with you about my printer purchase, when my nephew arrives back in town on Friday.
5) Meanwhile, I am shooting a lot, and I am trying to practice the principles of composing in camera which you have earlier advised me to use.

Mary
 
Last edited:

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Mary Bull said:
Asher, the page display is so bad that I cannot even find the Print option on it.

Hi Mary,

If you follow this link, it will take you directly to the print option page. Hope it helps. If not, send me PM for further help pls.

Regards,

Cem
 

Dave New

Member
Simple answers needed, given

Ok, in keeping in the spirit of the 'entry' level designation of this forum, I'll modify my recommendations to the following:

1) Don't make any adjustments whatsoever to your digital images. In fact, don't look at them on any computer screen, because if it is not calibrated and profiled and the image being viewed in a program that honors the profile (none of the Windows native viewers, do, by the way, like Explorer, etc), then it will never show what you might see in a print, anyway. Pay no attention to sRGB vs AdobeRGB, or any of that alphabet soup.

2) If you are using a Canon camera, then get a Canon printer, and plug the camera directly into the USB port on the printer, and use the PIM (Print Image Matching) or whatever Canon wants to call it these days, to get the printer to print the closest approximation of what it thinks the shooter intended when they snapped the photo. In fact, if your camea sports a 'print' button, you will discover what Canon intended it to be used for. Read your camera and printer manual to see how all this 'plug n play' is designed to work for the casual snapshooter.

If this doesn't produce satisfying results, then you will need to concentrate on getting a better image in the camera in the first place. Try color-balancing using custom white-balance with a WhiBal (http://www.rawworkflow.com), or playing with the preset color-balance settings in the camera. Any attempt to make corrections on a non-calibrated/profiled/color-managed computer will just frustrate you, as you chase after tweak after tweak, trying to get the printer output to look anything like what you see on the screen.

This may seem harsh (and even sarcastic) to the old guard, here, but as Asher cautioned, for folks that are trying to do entry-level digital work, it is way too complex to introduce all the color-management issues at this stage, no matter how well-meaning that may be.

For folks that are just getting their feet wet in digital, and are coming from a point-and-shoot 35mm film experience, where they shot color negative film (very forgiving in a number of ways) and took it to the local drug-store/photo emporium (where a skilled(?) operator used a fairly sophisticated color- and contrast-correcting machine to save many a poorly-exposed, wacky color-cast print, anything more complex than 'plug the camera into your manufacturer-matched inkjet printer and make 4x6 prints' is just simply too much information.

I realize that a lot of folks that used to snap 35mm negatives are very disappointed or at least surprised when they find that the prints they get from a typical digital camera are under/overexposed, or have weird color casts, when they typically never saw those kinds of results from their drugstore prints. This is the underbelly of digital photography these days, and why people that were casual film shooters either give up on digital, or just figure that somehow the cameras are defective or deficient. Some of them come to forums like these looking for simple answers, and find out that there are none (besides the simple advice I outlined above). Simple answers (at least for the current state of the art of digital photography) tend not to be satisfying to the more advanced photographers, here, but sometimes we have to just give the simple answer and move on.
 

Dierk Haasis

pro member
Dave New said:
2) If you are using a Canon camera, then get a Canon printer, and plug the camera directly into the USB port on the printer, and use the PIM (Print Image Matching) or whatever Canon wants to call it these days

Unfortunately that's, although I like your approach, not possible. Yes, you can connect the G2 with (any) direct print printer - but only to get the images with DPOF printed as is. The G2 does not support any of the later, more advanced technologies. Which leaves Mary again with trying to get everything right by using the printer's image enhencement options (if it has any) - only with a smaller and lousier monitor.
 

Mary Bull

New member
My Color Needs Have Now Been Met

Cem, thanks for trying to help.

But every page on that website glares at my old eyes so fiercely that I truly cannot read text on that site or find download buttons.

Andrew Rodney has just replied to my OPF PM to him that it is not his website and he has no control over it. They simply asked him to write the article for them.

I can live without reading that article. My needs are simple, and they have already been met by following the advice of Dierk Haasis.

Mary
 

Mary Bull

New member
Never mind. Haven't you been reading what I said about it?

I can't navigate on that website because I can't see it.

Mary
 

Mary Bull

New member
Well, not to me, for all the hassle it's caused me.

As I posted above, my needs are simple and they have now been perfecly met by following the advice of Dierk Haasis.

Mary
 

Richard McNeil

New member
Mary Bull said:
Never mind. Haven't you been reading what I said about it?

I can't navigate on that website because I can't see it.

Mary

Yes I read your posts. If you go to the page and right click anywhere on the page you would get a popup windown that has a "print" selection. That is what I was suggesting. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Richard
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Mary did you try Cem's link? It takes you straight to a very clean black-on-white print version.

And I promise it's worth the effort, if only for the *wonderful* optical illusion used to illustrate why attempting to "calibrate" anything with the human eye is an exercise in futility.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Dierk Haasis

pro member
What's up with the pages from Dry Creek, I just opened them for the first time just now and they are black on white with relatively large type? Using Opera 9.02 without any highly customised user CSS - I see what the authors intended us to see.

Mary, can you send me a screenshot of what you are seeing (PNG preferred)?


PS: Mike Chaney's highly interesting and entertaining articles on printing and more.
 

Mary Bull

New member
My needs have now been perfectly met and I don't need any more advice

I'm no longer interested in reading the article by Andrew Rodney.

That site did something to Opera 9 when I tried to use its e-mail function (thinking that it was Andrew's website and that I could get some help from him about the unuseable display). First it rejected the e-mail. And from then on Opera sends me an error message overlaying whatever web page I'm visiting, including OPF, about every 5 minutes. Even if I'm not focused on the page--have minimized it to tray--the error message overlays whatever I'm trying to do on-screen.

Image5.GIF


I've cleared the cache. I even deleted *all* private data, trying to get Opera 9 to forget about it. I think the thing may be with me forever. That's the thanks I have for trying to be polite and cooperate about reading Andrew's article.

I am not going to read it, now. I know, with regard to color calibration, all I want to know.

And if you had actually been reading all my posts, you would know that I have said three times that my needs are now perfectly met.

Kindly quit pushing me to learn more than I want to learn.

Mary
 

StuartRae

New member
Mary,

It looks as if the Opera Javascript console has somehow got switched on. In Firefox it's under the Tools menu item. Maybe the same for Opera.

Any other Opera users out there?

Stuart
 
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