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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

For owners of 1DIII with no mega-pixel peeping allergy only ;-)

Peter Ruevski

New member
They appear still to be useful in the higher ranges, e.g., 1000 and 1250 cleaner than 1600, and 2000 and 2500 cleaner than 3200. As that neighborhood is where I live a lot of the time, I'm very glad to know that.
The page is now updated with the actual noise analysis. Here is what it looks like:

Mk3Noise_Counts.png


The bottom line is that ISO 125, 160, 250, 320 and 640 are not very useful since they have higher noise than the next "round" one.

Has anybody performed this exercise on the 1DsMkII?
Not that I am aware of. Would you like me to? Just shoot the raw files and upload them somewhere :)

When I have some time I will make a similar page for my 30D.
 

Peter Ruevski

New member
[...] a very easy rule of thumb for practical application to both cameras: Don't use the intermediate ISO's till you get above 800, then do use them.

Or am I oversimplifying?
You are not, the rule is pretty good.

Well I see ISO 500 on the 1DsMkII doesn't quite fit the pattern, but it's still probably close enough to let the rule of thumb stand.
It does not fit the pattern on the MkIII either but it is close enough, and the rule is very convenient indeed:)

For the really picky, the actual numbers are:
ISO 500 - 66.46dB (in counts 2104.93) and
ISO 800 - 65.44dB (in counts 1870.91)
a difference of 1.02dB.

This is actually a larger difference in the noise than between
ISO 100 - 70.16dB (in counts 3221.52) and
ISO 200 - 69.71dB (in counts 3059.75)
a difference of 0.45dB.

I am glad that something useful comes out of mega-pixel peeping ;-)
 
Thanks Bart. This is extremely helpful particularly as it translates to a very easy rule of thumb for practical application to both cameras: Don't use the intermediate ISO's till you get above 800, then do use them.

Or am I oversimplifying?

You are correct about avoiding the 'intermediate' ISOs, period.

The only bit of oversimplification is for the 800+ ISOs. The/my 1DsMkII has a measured maximum effective ISO of around ISO 1000, and I expect/hope the 1DMkIII to better that by, maybe, 1 EV or ISO 1600/2000.
Beyond that 'unity gain' level there can (QED!) be a benefit (when shooting Raw) to just leave the ISO as it is and dial in a negative EV correction for the exposure meter (and adjust the underexposure in post-processing). Post-processing quality will depend on the Raw converter used, see a practical example here.

Well I see ISO 500 on the 1DsMkII doesn't quite fit the pattern, but it's still probably close enough to let the rule of thumb stand.

Yes, and remember that we are assuming the compression rate to be a good indicator for noise, but there is a certain level of systematic (instead of random) data/noise in the total file structure and image data that compresses differently, depending on compression method.

Bart
 
Bart then you already have the data. If you want to share it I will make a similar page for the 1DsMk2

Well, I just shot the 1/100 second dark frames a couple of hours ago (21 degrees Celcius). I usually test for read noise using the shortest possible integration time, 1/8000 second on the 1DsMk2, so I also compared them and there is just a small difference in the compressed file sizes (haven't checked the actual sensel data noise yet).

Beyond the file sizes, I have yet to do the numerical dark-noise analysis of the 1/100 sec sequence with IRIS (to reduce the number of variables between the analyses of the 2 cameras). I'm very interested in a fundamental analysis of the Mark III output quality, I might get one based on the outcome (I know the features I like, the data quality is decisive).

Bart
 

John Sheehy

New member
As mentioned earlier, the same 'real analog gain' ISO benefits up to ISO 800, and from approximately ISO 1000 we get to the 'unity gain' levels. Once unity gain is reached (the point where a single electron equals a single digital number difference), Poisson statistics will work against us and it becomes better to under-expose and boost the signal in postprocessing. That will avoid adding amplifier noise.

"Unity gain" is about ISO 375 on the 1dmk3.

I don't see any evidence that unity gain is anything but an arbitrary designation. The ADCs are *NOT* counting electrons. They are digitizing a discreet number electrons lost in a cloud of totally analog noise; unity is meaningless through this cloud.
 

Steve Saunders

New member
I'll be taking the test RAW shots down from Rapidshare tonight to make room for more stuff, so if anyone needs to download them it will have to be done today. :)
 
I'll be taking the test RAW shots down from Rapidshare tonight to make room for more stuff, so if anyone needs to download them it will have to be done today. :)

I already did that earlier, thanks for making them available. Inspecting the Raw data does reveal some strange patterns on the left, top and bottom edges. I presume those anomalies won't influence image quality, since they seem to be part of the non-image area, but they might influence image analysis a little if included in the evaluation area. This also assumes that software like IRIS/DCraw interprets the file data as it should.

Bart
 

John Sheehy

New member
I already did that earlier, thanks for making them available. Inspecting the Raw data does reveal some strange patterns on the left, top and bottom edges. I presume those anomalies won't influence image quality, since they seem to be part of the non-image area, but they might influence image analysis a little if included in the evaluation area. This also assumes that software like IRIS/DCraw interprets the file data as it should.

Iris only knows how to decompress the RAW data for the mk3; it doesn't know what areas are image and what are not. If you want to run stats on the entire image, you'll need to crop, until a new version of IRIS comes out that knows the mk3. In the meantime, a DNG conversion may substitute.

I notice that you use the term "IRIS/DCraw". Iris only uses the raw decompression from DCRAW; it doesn't use DCRAW output at all.
 
Peter Ruevski wrote: "When I have some time I will make a similar page for my 30D."


Peter, I'd love to see what the analysis looks like on your 30D, thanks in advance.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian
 

Peter Ruevski

New member
Peter Ruevski wrote: "When I have some time I will make a similar page for my 30D."

Peter, I'd love to see what the analysis looks like on your 30D, thanks in advance.
Thanks for reminding me. I collected the data but did not find the time to process it. Here it the new 30D page:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~par24/rawhistogram/30DTest.html
It is quite instructive and a great illustration of the fake (mathematically scaled) 1/3 stop ISO settings of the camera.
The settings go in sets of three like this (just pass your mouse up through the list to see the effect):
(xxx), 100, 125
160, 200, 250
320, 400, 500
640, 800, 1000
1250, 1600, (3200)

So for example 160 is derived from 200 by scaling down (the histogram becomes ^^^) and 250 is derived by scaling up (the histogram becomes combed).

The down scaled settings (160, 320, 640, 1250) have better signal/noise ratio "on paper" and the scaled up ones (125, 250, 500, 1000) have worse. This is useful to know when shooting JPEG, when shooting raw the intermediate ISOs are useless - you can just as well underexpose or overexpose a round ISO by 1/3 stop and respectively push or pull the exposure during raw conversion. The benefit is that one has full control - which presumably is the reason to shoot raw in the first place.
30DNoise_Counts.png

Notice also that ISO 100 is worse than ISO 200 - this is because the pixels get saturated before the A/D converters (3398 raw counts out of the possible 4096 see here).
In fact the same is true for the Mark III at ISO 100 (15280 counts out of the possible 16383) and I updated that graph accordingly.
Mk3Noise_Counts.png


The results are directly comparable for the two cameras so you can see absolute differences in noise performance.
 
Thanks Peter, I really appreciate your effort.

BTW, by any chance to you have a similar analysis for the 1DmkII (N or non-N)?

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian
 
Last edited:

Jack Joseph Jr

New member
Peter,

I haven't been much of a chart watcher so I'm not quite sure what I am seeing.

Now that the 30D appears to be cleaner at ISO 160 and 320 than at 200 it makes me wonder whether the 30D's almost-the-same-thing-big-brother, the 5D behaves in the same manner?

Would you characterize the high signal/noise points as the "actual" or "real" ISO settings, ie the 160 intervals on the 30D and the as expected 100 intervals on the mark III? To put it another way are the fake ISOs on the 30D 125, 200, 250? If so is it the same pattern on the 5D?

Finally might one conclude that ISO 500 on the Mark III is just slightly cleaner than ISO 320 on the 30D?

Thanks for the work you shared in your earlier post.
 
I haven't been much of a chart watcher so I'm not quite sure what I am seeing.

Now that the 30D appears to be cleaner at ISO 160 and 320 than at 200 it makes me wonder whether the 30D's almost-the-same-thing-big-brother, the 5D behaves in the same manner?

The Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio in Peter's charts tells you how much better the maximum signal is relative to the noise floor, or in other words (with a theoretically constant signal) how noise deteriorates the ratio. A higher S/N ratio is better so, the 30D's noise floor being the lowest at ISO 200, the S/N ratio is highest (best quality in the shadow areas).

With the native sensitivity of current Bayer CFA sensor arrays being approx. equal to ISO 100, it suggests that the 30D uses a combination of 'pushing' and 'pulling' for intermediate ISO settings. This is different from other models which only 'push' intermediae ISOs.

Bart
 

John Sheehy

New member
The Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio in Peter's charts tells you how much better the maximum signal is relative to the noise floor, or in other words (with a theoretically constant signal) how noise deteriorates the ratio. A higher S/N ratio is better so, the 30D's noise floor being the lowest at ISO 200, the S/N ratio is highest (best quality in the shadow areas).

You meant 160, didn't you? That has the highest value on the 30D chart.

These aren't really S/N ratios, though. S/N depends on the signal and noise at various signal levels; The figures in these charts are the ratios of the maximum signal, to the noise of no signal at all. They should be called DR, more properly, and even then, they are slightly different from the ratios of max signal to the signal where the S/N is equal to 1:1, because there is a small amount of shot noise from that perspective, relative to read noise. The ratios on these charts are not affected by shot noise, they are like classic audio S/N where there is no such thing as shot noise.

With the native sensitivity of current Bayer CFA sensor arrays being approx. equal to ISO 100,

I wonder if there is some industry convention to have ISO 100 if at all possible, and have the extended main ISOs to be full stops faster? It seems that cameras are compromised to have these round numbers - ISO 50 is compromised on the 5D and 1D* cameras; ISO 100 on the 20D/30D, etc. It would seem much better, IMO, to have the lowest ISO at whatever sensitivity is necessary to have, say, 3.5 stops of RAW green highlights in the linear range of the sensor, below saturation, and then have other ISOs built upon this base, all with the same headroom. SO, the 1D* and 5D would have ISO 80, 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2560, (5120,) etc. The 20D and 30D could start at ISO 125. It seems like so much is twisted to have smooth-number ISOs, and much more than semantics are damaged. The improvement in shot noise by having ISOs 50 and 100 in these cases is minor, and only happens when one trusts the camera's meter for a centered histogram; all the benefits are possible by just exposing to the right at hypothetical main ISOs 80 and 125, with higher potential DR for the base ISO.

it suggests that the 30D uses a combination of 'pushing' and 'pulling' for intermediate ISO settings. This is different from other models which only 'push' intermediae ISOs.

The way in which the 5D and 1D cameras push intermediate ISOs is actually the way *all* ISOs are pushed on most CCD sensors, AFAIK. Looking at noise levels in Nikon files, for example, read noise is almost directly proportional to ISO, and ISO 1600 typically has about 15x the read noise of ISO 100, suggesting that the only difference in absolute read noise (IOW, in electrons) amongst ISOs (other than quantization), is the ADC noise.
You won't see jagged charts with these cameras, because it is all scaled, and there are no optimization for a higher ISO at any point on the chart. You won't see any ratios higher than about 650, for example, at ISO 100 on a D2X, and ISO 1600 is only going to be about 40, and a smooth curve in-between. With cameras that sport an almost linear relationship between ISO and read noise, there is not as much benefit in exposing to the right if one shoots RAW, as shooting to the left at a lower ISO can give similar results.

So, there are actually many levels of ISO "reality". What gets called fake in one context may be what is normal in another. They are all real, as far as exposure index is concerned (other than some small metering differences between cameras). The 5D, 1D, and most CCD cameras achieve some or all of their ISOs by some secondary amplification after the inital read and before the digitization, and this allows the headroom to be consistent in all, and the DR graphs to be smooth in the CCD cameras.

The 30D way, in general, is the most annoying of all, as the headroom varies in neighboring ISOs, as does read noise relative to metering, and stacking images from the extra ISOs, while reducing noise, will also uncover the posterization effects hidden in the gapped and spiked histograms. The 30D does have one benefit, though. The 160/320/640/1250 group allow a virtual extra 1/3 stop positive EC, and they automaically use 1/3 stop more DR than the main ISOs for JPEGs. My 30D is almost always set to this group of ISOs (especially at the lower end of the ISO scale), and I'd only use 200, 400, etc if I were stacking or binning RAW images and didn't want to suffer any posterization in the deepest shadows.
 
You meant 160, didn't you? That has the highest value on the 30D chart.

Correct, I was looking at the 1D Mark II chart, apparently.

These aren't really S/N ratios, though.

Correct, but I didn't want to over-complicate things for the casual observer, and I therefore did mention "with a theoretically constant signal", trying to subtly point out Peter's IMHO slightly simplistic (and therefore more clear!) presentation.

S/N depends on the signal and noise at various signal levels;

Correct, and should strictly therefore also have incorporated the Poisson statistic's noise (Sqrt(max_signal)) at the sensel's saturation level, at the risk of not making as clear a point as intended. From a scientifically correct point of view, one would also need to drive the 'Poisson statistis limited' point home.

The figures in these charts are the ratios of the maximum signal, to the noise of no signal at all. They should be called DR, more properly, and even then, they are slightly different from the ratios of max signal to the signal where the S/N is equal to 1:1, because there is a small amount of shot noise from that perspective, relative to read noise.

Yes, I already made that point by pointing to the difference between an 'unexposed' 1/8000th second exposure and the 1/100th second exposure used. However, the difference in practice is small enough to often be unnoticable (I did verify that on a 20D and a 1DsMk2).

I wonder if there is some industry convention to have ISO 100 if at all possible, and have the extended main ISOs to be full stops faster?

I think it just happens to play out that way, Quantum efficiency with average micro-lenses and Bayer CFA filtering and all.

It seems that cameras are compromised to have these round numbers - ISO 50 is compromised on the 5D and 1D* cameras; ISO 100 on the 20D/30D, etc.

ISO 'L' isn't compromised on my 1Ds Mark II, it's just more like ISO 70-80. It achieves an ever so slightly higher S/N ratio, at all exposure levels when exposed correctly (and a noticably lower noise level).

It would seem much better, IMO, to have the lowest ISO at whatever sensitivity is necessary to have, say, 3.5 stops of RAW green highlights in the linear range of the sensor, below saturation, and then have other ISOs built upon this base, all with the same headroom. SO, the 1D* and 5D would have ISO 80, 160, 320, 640, 1280, 2560, (5120,) etc.

Well, that would depend on whether one chooses to adopt a saturation based, or a noise based, sensitivity indication. Both are allowed under the ISO method for single shot digital cameras.

The 20D and 30D could start at ISO 125. It seems like so much is twisted to have smooth-number ISOs, and much more than semantics are damaged. The improvement in shot noise by having ISOs 50 and 100 in these cases is minor, and only happens when one trusts the camera's meter for a centered histogram; all the benefits are possible by just exposing to the right at hypothetical main ISOs 80 and 125, with higher potential DR for the base ISO.

Yep, but one can only hope for that to come out of the marketoid communication channels. That's why the efforts of us pixelpeepers are needed to get own to the nitty gritty.

The 30D way, in general, is the most annoying of all, as the headroom varies in neighboring ISOs, as does read noise relative to metering, and stacking images from the extra ISOs, while reducing noise, will also uncover the posterization effects hidden in the gapped and spiked histograms. The 30D does have one benefit, though. The 160/320/640/1250 group allow a virtual extra 1/3 stop positive EC, and they automaically use 1/3 stop more DR than the main ISOs for JPEGs.

For the 30D, apparently yes.

Bart
 

Emil Martinec

New member
Has anyone measured how many electrons there are per ADU in the 1D3 at a particular ISO? I'd be interested to know...

OK, I got a friend who owns a 1D3 to take a couple of sky shots for me at ISO 100. Subtracting the one of the green subarrays of the Bayer matrix, taking a center crop and dividing the average raw value in ADU (minus the 1024 blackpoint, of course) by the half the square of the std dev of the difference, I came up with 5.2 electrons/ADU for one image pair and 5.1 for another pair. This translates to 20-21 electrons/ADU in 12-bit terms, which seems huge (the 5D has the largest I've seen reported, at 4.08 e-/ADU at ISO 400, which translates to 16.3 at ISO 100).

It seems to me that gain factor (electrons/ADU) is a rough guide to image quality; taking values reported by Christian Buil and Roger Clark together with the above, one has


cam e-/ADU (in 12-bit terms @ ISO 400)
10D 2.3
350D 2.6
400D 2.7
20D 3.1
40D 3.1
1D2 3.3
5D 4.1
1D3 5.1

Now I would judge this also to be the rough order of image quality of this list of cameras as well. It's a more accurate guide than pixel pitch, as it takes into account the efficiency of the detector in capturing photons. And when you're looking at anything but shadows, the signal is Poisson-noise limited, so you want to be capturing as many electrons as possible per ADU.
 
The king is dead, long live the king

Emil,

Thanks for your contribution. It helps to put things in perspective.

OK, I got a friend who owns a 1D3 to take a couple of sky shots for me at ISO 100.

Great, I have been waiting for some people to send such files to me for analysis, but now we have important data to draw conclusions from.

Subtracting the one of the green subarrays of the Bayer matrix, taking a center crop and dividing the average raw value in ADU (minus the 1024 blackpoint, of course) by the half the square of the std dev of the difference, I came up with 5.2 electrons/ADU for one image pair and 5.1 for another pair. This translates to 20-21 electrons/ADU in 12-bit terms, which seems huge (the 5D has the largest I've seen reported, at 4.08 e-/ADU at ISO 400, which translates to 16.3 at ISO 100).

So, we have a new (1.3 crop 35mm DSLR) king in analog gain based image quality (the king is dead, long live the king). Now all Canon has to do is get a grip on the Mark III's AF system.

It seems to me that gain factor (electrons/ADU) is a rough guide to image quality; taking values reported by Christian Buil and Roger Clark together with the above, one has

cam e-/ADU (in 12-bit terms @ ISO 400)
10D 2.3
350D 2.6
400D 2.7
20D 3.1
40D 3.1
1D2 3.3
5D 4.1
1D3 5.1

Now I would judge this also to be the rough order of image quality of this list of cameras as well. It's a more accurate guide than pixel pitch, as it takes into account the efficiency of the detector in capturing photons. And when you're looking at anything but shadows, the signal is Poisson-noise limited, so you want to be capturing as many electrons as possible per ADU.

Yes, I fully agree. And you can add the 1Ds2 to the list at 3.3 e-/ADU (in 12-bit terms @ ISO 400). Despite it's smaller sensels, it also supposedly had relatively larger micro-lenses, an improved CFA, and improved chip fabrication (narrower transfer gates) than the 1D2 (I don't know what happened to the later 1D2N under the hood).

A small caveat, I actually measured my 1Ds2 at ISO 200 and 1600 (6.887 and 0.8001 e-/ADU respectively), so I interpolated the ISO 400 at 3.32 e-/ADU. Also, the analog gain for Blue and especially Red is worse in my 1Ds2, so the conclusions/ranking here are only for Green filtered sensels.

Another interesting conclusion that can be drawn is about the 'unity gain level' at the native bit-depth of the ADC, which can be interpreted as the highest practical ISO setting, e.g. important for astronomers. Depending on the quality of the camera's circuits and amplifiers, there can be a benefit in just underexposing at the unity gain ISO (closest non-intermediate ISO, e.g. 800 or 1600), and boosting exposure in postprocessing (should one need faster shutter speeds or with a lack of light). In this respect it will be interesting to see the new DxO 5 raw conversion quality, which supposedly addresses noise reduction before demosaicing.

Yet another interesting conclusion can be drawn from the difference between the ISO 100 and ISO 'L' gain setting for those seeking ultimate image quality (e.g. studio work, although I use 'L' also outdoors in bright light). For my 1Ds2, green sensels only, I got 14.154 e-/ADU at ISO 100 and 18.242 e-/ADU at ISO 'L' which apparently is ISO 78 rather than 50 (which explains why people experienced clipped highlights when exposing as ISO 50). The 'L'setting also (marginally) improved the Dynamic Range compared to ISO 100 (assuming correct exposure).

Maybe we can now also speculate a bit more educated about the 1Ds3, based on its smaller sensel surface but with the 1D3's technology advances, as having a 3.1 e-/ADU gain, which would give us following ranking list:

cam e-/ADU (in 12-bit terms @ ISO 400)
10D 2.3
350D 2.6
400D 2.7
20D 3.1
40D 3.1
1Ds3 3.1??
1Ds2 3.3
1D2 3.3
5D 4.1
1D3 5.1

Regards,
Bart
 
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