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Just for Fun No C&C will be given: Street Girl

Abhijit Biswas

New member
I spent some time capturing the lives on the streets during my last trip to Calcutta. I thought there was something in her eyes! Would appreciate any comments.


_MG_7770_01_1024.jpg


Abhijit Biswas
www.exposurebits.com
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Abhijit,

Rest assured, you can expect a lot of opinionated reactions to this post of yours as the topic of photographing homeless people and/or local folks living under such dire circumstances is a very hot morality issue.

My personal opinion is; unless your picture is taken as part of a greater project in order to raise consciousness and to improve the lives of those who are portrayed in it, it is not OK. Since you mention none of those intentions but show the picture merely because of the eyes, I then conclude that any gain to be had by this picture is a personal one for you. Therefore, I truly detest it. There, I've said it....
 

Abhijit Biswas

New member
Hi Cem,

Thanks for the heads up.

I am not sure if a photograph needs explanation from the photographer to stand on its own. I this case I have given some geographic information which might influence the viewer's thoughts about the image. Even giving a title might influence the viewer's thoughts. I normally don't give much information in the forum posts to avoid this.

I also mentioned "something" in the eyes and certainly did not want to impose my views on the viewer's mind. I don't think that it's wise for anyone to take this "something" with a narrower view and try to comment on the photographer's intention. The information about a photograph whether it's part of a big noble project does not have anything to with the message it tries to convey. Of course the message would depend on lot of factors such as the viewer's life experience and state of mind when viewing the image. But we are not discussing that here.

It's not fun to be poor and homeless and survive on begging. There is nothing romantic about it. It's difficult to describe the pains and sufferings they go through in their daily lives; through rains, cold winter and hot summer ... with empty stomach and no clothes to put on.

It's big issue today in the world and no single person or entity can handle it alone. I believe we all do our bits to alleviate and eradicate the issue. But whether it's through a big project or small act is a different issue altogether.


I hope this sheds some lights.


Abhijit Biswas
http://www.exposurebits.com



Abhijit,

Rest assured, you can expect a lot of opinionated reactions to this post of yours as the topic of photographing homeless people and/or local folks living under such dire circumstances is a very hot morality issue.

My personal opinion is; unless your picture is taken as part of a greater project in order to raise consciousness and to improve the lives of those who are portrayed in it, it is not OK. Since you mention none of those intentions but show the picture merely because of the eyes, I then conclude that any gain to be had by this picture is a personal one for you. Therefore, I truly detest it. There, I've said it....
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I spent some time capturing the lives on the streets during my last trip to Calcutta. I thought there was something in her eyes! Would appreciate any comments.


_MG_7770_01_1024.jpg


Abhijit Biswas
Homeless Girl


Cem's comments are valid and should be taken as the baseline warning and give a sense of responsibility to all of us who do street or vacation photography. I feel that pictures cannot all be asked to stand on their own. In this case, one needs an explanation so we can get her into context of the society that allows such horror and tragedy.

Begging is part of society for eternity. We cannot deal with it unless ist's exposed.

  1. itinerant student beggars, essentially actors, frauds,: clubs of fiends, or a gang roaming to milk the tourist cities in Europe

  2. Organized mafia like layered reporting structure over a pyramid of thousands of individual children monitored by a "keeper", (could be her mother, grandmother or aunt). The bosses live in Romania in mansions. Spain is a rich location for this. The kids get beaten when they don't beg or steal enough. Some escape but are not educated and in a foreign country so it's tough

  3. Indigenous begging: Poor families send kids out to supplement funds for sustenance

  4. The most tragic: kids maimed to increase the pull on tourists

  5. Solitary begging: kids on their own, begging/stealing is for survival. They sleep in any crevice they find. They are the forgotten kids of our societies.

In the light of all this, it's important that we show this and expose ourselves to this sad truth of less fortunate folk and not merely for entertainment and the Bresson moment!

Asher
 

Abhijit Biswas

New member
Hi Asher,

Explanation and other details are needed to tell a bigger story with an image as the image cannot hold that in itself. But, IMHO, an image itself should be able to tell "A" story to a viewer without the additional details.

Thanks for all the details about different types of begging. I certainly noticed few of them during my boy/adulthood. There is no easy solution to this problem as evident from your listing.

I don't think anyone feels entertained by this kind of image other than to understand and feel the sadness of the girl and if that feeling raises to a certain level one would be going that extra mile to help them have a better life.


Thanks,
Abhijit Biswas
http://www.exposurebits.com



Cem's comments are valid and should be taken as the baseline warning and give a sense of responsibility to all of us who do street or vacation photography. I feel that pictures cannot all be asked to stand on their own. In this case, one needs an explanation so we can get her into context of the society that allows such horror and tragedy.

Begging is part of society for eternity. We cannot deal with it unless ist's exposed.

  1. itinerant student beggars, essentially actors, frauds,: clubs of fiends, or a gang roaming to milk the tourist cities in Europe

  2. Organized mafia like layered reporting structure over a pyramid of thousands of individual children monitored by a "keeper", (could be her mother, grandmother or aunt). The bosses live in Romania in mansions. Spain is a rich location for this. The kids get beaten when they don't beg or steal enough. Some escape but are not educated and in a foreign country so it's tough

  3. Indigenous begging: Poor families send kids out to supplement funds for sustenance

  4. The most tragic: kids maimed to increase the pull on tourists

  5. Solitary begging: kids on their own, begging/stealing is for survival. They sleep in any crevice they find. They are the forgotten kids of our societies.

In the light of all this, it's important that we show this and expose ourselves to this sad truth of less fortunate folk and not merely for entertainment and the Bresson moment!

Asher
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
.... I am not sure if a photograph needs explanation from the photographer to stand on its own. I this case I have given some geographic information which might influence the viewer's thoughts about the image. Even giving a title might influence the viewer's thoughts. I normally don't give much information in the forum posts to avoid this.

I also mentioned "something" in the eyes and certainly did not want to impose my views on the viewer's mind. I don't think that it's wise for anyone to take this "something" with a narrower view and try to comment on the photographer's intention. The information about a photograph whether it's part of a big noble project does not have anything to with the message it tries to convey. Of course the message would depend on lot of factors such as the viewer's life experience and state of mind when viewing the image. But we are not discussing that here.

It's not fun to be poor and homeless and survive on begging. There is nothing romantic about it. It's difficult to describe the pains and sufferings they go through in their daily lives; through rains, cold winter and hot summer ... with empty stomach and no clothes to put on.

It's big issue today in the world and no single person or entity can handle it alone. I believe we all do our bits to alleviate and eradicate the issue. But whether it's through a big project or small act is a different issue altogether.


I hope this sheds some lights...

....I don't think anyone feels entertained by this kind of image other than to understand and feel the sadness of the girl and if that feeling raises to a certain level one would be going that extra mile to help them have a better life...
I am sad to read that my point has been misunderstood. I wasn't asking for a context or explanation. I was simply stating that since you do not have a valid purpose for taking this picture, it is an opportunistic picture which serves no other purpose than your own personal agenda. As such, you are actually exploiting this little girl's misfortune. You say yourself that it is not fun to be poor and homeless. We do not need your picture to tell us this fact, we know it already. From my perspective, this picture shouldn't have been taken at all. Have I made it clear now?
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cem,

I was simply stating that since you do not have a valid purpose for taking this picture, it is an opportunistic picture which serves no other purpose than your own personal agenda.

How dare you opine that someone "has no valid purpose" for taking a picture. I must have missed the memo in which you were invested with that supernatural jurisdiction.

Most of my pictures serve nothing beyond my personal agenda.

Doug
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi, Cem,



How dare you opine that someone "has no valid purpose" for taking a picture. I must have missed the memo in which you were invested with that supernatural jurisdiction.

Most of my pictures serve nothing beyond my personal agenda.

Doug
How fine for you.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Well,

We start with the assumption that this child was homeless and maybe begging. The image of a child alone, apparently abandoned is heartbreaking. The picture is well constructed, gets my attention and is riveting. no technical details need be discussed therefore. It's the moral wrappings of this that come to the fore.

This picture sparked extreme points of view. I have been troubled by this who idea of street photography whether by using a double lenses Mamiya 330looking down into the belly of a black beast, smartly with a Bresson flair and a Leica or by hunting from across the street with a telephoto. Still, I do it and one always should feel guilt, even though it's legal, at least in the USA, it's robbing of a sort. Here's an organization one should study and maybe donate to to counterbalance one's trespasses, although it won't make you innocent! It's called "Picture The Homeless" which does try to fight for the rights of street people.

Cem's Response: Abhijit, while I am taken back by the force of Cem's response, and it is strong, it's driven by a set of strong moral values. I'm sure it knocked a lot of folk off their feet. Actually Cem is one of the fairest people I know and talented in his own right as a photographer. If you can step back a little from the shear force of his statement, there is a clear moral impediment to our photographing whatever we want especially from those who cannot give consent or who are powerless to object.

So let me start somewhere easy: I love to photograph children. Almost always I try to identify the parents and ask permission. Otherwise they might be terrified about the safety of their children. Still, at the skyline, kids playing and no identification possible I squeeze the shutter, feeling I still have trespassed. I photograph a lot of people in the studio and outside in all positions and poses. If by chance any are disliked by the person, they are generally deleted immediately. If I notice exposure that was unintended, it goes too.

The camera can see far better than an eye and what's visible in the street for seconds is frozen in a photograph for eternity. To me the photographer will always be the hunter, even when hired, as he is far more skilled and cunning than the client could imagine. So we must realize, we are no less than men with guns, except our cameras take silently. When one sees this little girl, it's something of that. We have empathy, for sure. Still it's a freebee! There are no adults to intervene! We take the picture because she is weak and helpless with no parents there to shield her. She has become, in fact, a leaf fallen from the tree that could be blown by a puff of wind anywhere.
So if one takes such a picture, at the least, here's what one can do:
  1. Make a point of giving alms to the child so at least she'll be fed that day.
  2. Don't insert yourself in her life, just but get food from a stand and walk on.
  3. Better you are with a woman.
  4. Don't remove the child ever!
  5. Come back each day if you can and give alms but not as a friend. You will break her heart.
  6. Inquire of local charity groups as to who might take her in. Ask friends to pitch in with you a little to cover expenses for the charity.
  7. Offer free photography services for the charity.
  8. When you publish the picture, explain her plight and hold up the rest of us to shame for this.
With all this you and I are still not off scott free as we benefit greatly from this outstanding and sensitive picture. But we are in fact like the lion who rips apart Bambi, (the little beautiful deer), and shows how screwed up our sense of morality really is! One cannot tell the lion to eat rice nor the street photographer to only capture kisses! So we are no more advanced than that beat ofa lion then when we take from people against their will.

However, without Cem's strong, clear, unswerving, (yes Doug, even perhaps rude and ruthless), condemnation, we can get away with just being "artists", when in fact we are hunters and should not have a clear conscience for it! When communities don't have anyone saying, "Consider what you are doing, it's wrong!", we might lose one key voice in our understanding of things.

Asher

BTW, was the kid begging or just a regular playful kid resting? Is this really a homeless child or just wearing what other kids wear?
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Abhigjit

but it is the very nature of man to condem The Shadow they Fear-

what I see is a picture of a child
the shot seems almost benevolent for me- almost serene
but the connotations are there-

it shows so much
says so much
I think any artist should never fear their own art
what they see is more important and should be discussed as such
if the child is in fact homeless-this sad fact goes on forever
but
bring it to our attention "and we want to dismiss this reality"
the realization of a fact in this world we all share
should come to our attention as much as possible-
it does all the time in media

thank you for showing us what is a reality albeit all over this world of ours-
the shot is wonderfful
and I do not think you intended anything in a wronful way at all-


Charlotte-
 

Clayton Lofgren

New member
I see nothing demeaning about the picture, so I have no problem with it. I know lots of financially poor people, some of them do not feel poor at all.
 

Abhijit Biswas

New member
Hi Cem,

It's not appropriate for anyone to second guess any photographer's intention and purpose of an image. It's also not wise to use personal attack and pass judgement randomly.

Let me try to understand your perspective of the image and have a civilized discussion, shall we?.


I would appreciate if you can share your thoughts on the following.

1. What story does the image tell you from its contents?

2. How you would have composed this differently to have better impact (whatever the impact you think that is)?

3. What are the elements one would/should try to capture in such an image as an artist?

4. What would you capture as a photo journalist?

5. What would you do with the image as an artist, a photojournalist, a tourist and a philanthropist?

6. What's wrong with promoting or having a personal agenda?

7. Knowing what you know would you be kind enough to help them financially?


I know there are lots of questions. But this would really help me understand your perspective.



Regards,
Abhijit
http://www.exposurebits.com






I am sad to read that my point has been misunderstood. I wasn't asking for a context or explanation. I was simply stating that since you do not have a valid purpose for taking this picture, it is an opportunistic picture which serves no other purpose than your own personal agenda. As such, you are actually exploiting this little girl's misfortune. You say yourself that it is not fun to be poor and homeless. We do not need your picture to tell us this fact, we know it already. From my perspective, this picture shouldn't have been taken at all. Have I made it clear now?
 

Abhijit Biswas

New member
Hi Charlotte,

Thanks for your comments. I do not want to advertise my intention here. Since I did not mention it that does not mean I don't have one. You know it takes time for anyone to do something meaningful for the society. It's also not easy to help them as there are lots of issues around them. I have seen them from close quarters and I know a bit of their problems.

You will find this kind of reality in many countries around the world. The problems are not new and yet they are not going away. If there was an easy solution people already would have solved it. Anyway, this is a different issue altogether and may not be very appropriate for this photography forum.


Regards,
Abhijit
http://www.exposurebits.com



Abhigjit

but it is the very nature of man to condem The Shadow they Fear-

what I see is a picture of a child
the shot seems almost benevolent for me- almost serene
but the connotations are there-

it shows so much
says so much
I think any artist should never fear their own art
what they see is more important and should be discussed as such
if the child is in fact homeless-this sad fact goes on forever
but
bring it to our attention "and we want to dismiss this reality"
the realization of a fact in this world we all share
should come to our attention as much as possible-
it does all the time in media

thank you for showing us what is a reality albeit all over this world of ours-
the shot is wonderfful
and I do not think you intended anything in a wronful way at all-


Charlotte-
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
The posts in this thread have covered various issues...important issues. The OP names this thread as
a ' street girl '; not a girl begging, not a homeless child. That this is so is expounded on in the text.

Following is my understanding as coveyed by the various replies to this post....

- Without a bigger context, of which this photograph might be a part, it is wrong to have photographed it

- Their are different categories of ' beggars '.

- street photography might be viewed as ' robbing '. taking advantage of the photographed person/s

- photography of this kind must be constantly provided and their is nothing demeaning in it.

- photography should have a purpose
- no it does not have to have a reason. can be done without purpose

- people are rude, passionate about moral issues

- contribute to an organisation in NY for homeless people living there!!

who is right? of course you all are! this is the internet.

- answer these questions for me..a list of questions follows..here from me check this out for some help
on homeless children in India and elsewhere.

http://www.spraguephoto.com; search india and homeless or specifically kalkotta!

Take it easy folks, there is no such thing as black and white...just shades of gray, getting darker or lighter.

Regards.
 

Abhijit Biswas

New member
Hi Fahim,

Thanks for summarizing the thread so far. I see the title "Street Girl" might be taken in a different cultural context and might mean something that I did not mean to. That may be my lack of knowledge of different cultures and my inablity to tittle my photographs appropriately.

Going by the suggestion, I think "Homeless Girl" (Thanks, Asher) would be more appropriate.


I just wanted to make this clear.


Thanks,
Abhijit
http://www.exposurebits.com



The posts in this thread have covered various issues...important issues. The OP names this thread as
a ' street girl '; not a girl begging, not a homeless child. That this is so is expounded on in the text.

Following is my understanding as coveyed by the various replies to this post....

- Without a bigger context, of which this photograph might be a part, it is wrong to have photographed it

- Their are different categories of ' beggars '.

- street photography might be viewed as ' robbing '. taking advantage of the photographed person/s

- photography of this kind must be constantly provided and their is nothing demeaning in it.

- photography should have a purpose
- no it does not have to have a reason. can be done without purpose

- people are rude, passionate about moral issues

- contribute to an organisation in NY for homeless people living there!!

who is right? of course you all are! this is the internet.

- answer these questions for me..a list of questions follows..here from me check this out for some help
on homeless children in India and elsewhere.

http://www.spraguephoto.com; search india and homeless or specifically kalkotta!

Take it easy folks, there is no such thing as black and white...just shades of gray, getting darker or lighter.

Regards.
 

Abhijit Biswas

New member
Hi Asher,

Let me, first, response to the questions you asked at the very end and also give you some background about this image along the way. I believe the kid and her family live on the street. This is as far as I can tell from what I remember from her surroundings. The location is "Sealdaha Railway Station" which is the world's busiest railway station and there are slums all around. I saw her begging but she did not beg anything from me. I took this shot within a minute or so she came close and sat there. I tried to have a conversation with her and you know there are issues around that as well.

Anyway, Cem's strong response is fine. But it's just "A" view attached with lots of second guessing and assumptions which I don't think is very healthy in terms of having a meaningful discussion. You see we have a notion that "this is right or that is wrong". While there is no absolute certainty about this empirical aspects of life. Having a view point is good but it's better to be in a viewing point.

I just have a different view about photographer than you have. I don't think that the photographers are hunters. Photographers have different roles and responsibility depending on the situation. A photographer executing some beauty product advertising assignment has different objectives than a photojournalist covering war in Afghanistan or a photographer on an assignment work for AIDS awareness!

I do believe that a camera is more powerful than guns, arms, etc but in the right hand. I don't take pictures of the homeless girl because she is helpless or with no parents to shield her. I have different objectives and that will not refrain me from taking pictures even if her parents are there with her. In fact there was a family about 100 yards away from this girl. They also live on the streets and I took pictures of them as well with the parents.

I think your suggestions are good. One just need to find a practical way to implement this as there are thousands of them if not millions.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, Asher.



Regards,
Abhijit
http://www.exposurebits.com




Well,

We start with the assumption that this child was homeless and maybe begging. The image of a child alone, apparently abandoned is heartbreaking. The picture is well constructed, gets my attention and is riveting. no technical details need be discussed therefore. It's the moral wrappings of this that come to the fore.

This picture sparked extreme points of view. I have been troubled by this who idea of street photography whether by using a double lenses Mamiya 330looking down into the belly of a black beast, smartly with a Bresson flair and a Leica or by hunting from across the street with a telephoto. Still, I do it and one always should feel guilt, even though it's legal, at least in the USA, it's robbing of a sort. Here's an organization one should study and maybe donate to to counterbalance one's trespasses, although it won't make you innocent! It's called "Picture The Homeless" which does try to fight for the rights of street people.

Cem's Response: Abhijit, while I am taken back by the force of Cem's response, and it is strong, it's driven by a set of strong moral values. I'm sure it knocked a lot of folk off their feet. Actually Cem is one of the fairest people I know and talented in his own right as a photographer. If you can step back a little from the shear force of his statement, there is a clear moral impediment to our photographing whatever we want especially from those who cannot give consent or who are powerless to object.

So let me start somewhere easy: I love to photograph children. Almost always I try to identify the parents and ask permission. Otherwise they might be terrified about the safety of their children. Still, at the skyline, kids playing and no identification possible I squeeze the shutter, feeling I still have trespassed. I photograph a lot of people in the studio and outside in all positions and poses. If by chance any are disliked by the person, they are generally deleted immediately. If I notice exposure that was unintended, it goes too.

The camera can see far better than an eye and what's visible in the street for seconds is frozen in a photograph for eternity. To me the photographer will always be the hunter, even when hired, as he is far more skilled and cunning than the client could imagine. So we must realize, we are no less than men with guns, except our cameras take silently. When one sees this little girl, it's something of that. We have empathy, for sure. Still it's a freebee! There are no adults to intervene! We take the picture because she is weak and helpless with no parents there to shield her. She has become, in fact, a leaf fallen from the tree that could be blown by a puff of wind anywhere.
So if one takes such a picture, at the least, here's what one can do:
  1. Make a point of giving alms to the child so at least she'll be fed that day.
  2. Don't insert yourself in her life, just but get food from a stand and walk on.
  3. Better you are with a woman.
  4. Don't remove the child ever!
  5. Come back each day if you can and give alms but not as a friend. You will break her heart.
  6. Inquire of local charity groups as to who might take her in. Ask friends to pitch in with you a little to cover expenses for the charity.
  7. Offer free photography services for the charity.
  8. When you publish the picture, explain her plight and hold up the rest of us to shame for this.
With all this you and I are still not off scott free as we benefit greatly from this outstanding and sensitive picture. But we are in fact like the lion who rips apart Bambi, (the little beautiful deer), and shows how screwed up our sense of morality really is! One cannot tell the lion to eat rice nor the street photographer to only capture kisses! So we are no more advanced than that princely beast of a lion then when we take from people against their will.

However, without Cem's strong, clear, unswerving, (yes Doug, even perhaps rude and ruthless), condemnation, we can get away with just being "artists", when in fact we are hunters and should not have a clear conscience for it! When communities don't have anyone saying, "Consider what you are doing, it's wrong!", we might lose one key voice in our understanding of things.

Asher

BTW, was the kid begging or just a regular playful kid resting? Is this really a homeless child or just wearing what other kids wear?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi All,

I feel obliged to let you know where I stand on this right now. I do not want to react to the various individual points made by others. As Fahim has rightly summarized, we all are right in our own ways. And that is exactly what I need to reiterate now. My response was purely based on my personal opinion; it is neither true nor false and it certainly isn’t the truth if there ever was something as such. I have simply used my so-called “individual rights” to voice my opinion on this matter, albeit in a very straightforward way rather than sugar-coating it as I usually do under similar circumstances. Now coming from a background in the developing countries (oh how I hate that term, BTW), I am more than aware of the need to be careful with our freedom of speech, since one’s freedom can be another one’s pain. In other words, just like with any other given/assumed/taken right within the context of our current morality, one should deal with it carefully. Or as it is nicely put in the famous Spiderman quote: “with great power comes great responsibility” (you see, comics can be a good source of wisdom).

To make a long story short, I confess that I haven’t been careful enough in the manner with which I have voiced my personal opinion. For that reason, I offer my apologies to all and to Abhijit and Doug in particular. You do not need to agree or disagree with me, after all it was just an opinion which you can neglect if you so wish to.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi All,

I feel obliged to let you know where I stand on this right now. I do not want to react to the various individual points made by others. As Fahim has rightly summarized, we all are right in our own ways. And that is exactly what I need to reiterate now. My response was purely based on my personal opinion; it is neither true nor false and it certainly isn’t the truth if there ever was something as such. I have simply used my so-called “individual rights” to voice my opinion on this matter, albeit in a very straightforward way rather than sugar-coating it as I usually do under similar circumstances. ........
To make a long story short, I confess that I haven’t been careful enough in the manner with which I have voiced my personal opinion. For that reason, I offer my apologies to all and to Abhijit and Doug in particular. You do not need to agree or disagree with me, after all it was just an opinion which you can neglect if you so wish to.
Cem and all our friends who were moved by this picture,

I relied on your graciousness and you never let us down. It's important that we generate different opinions and that we duel. That way we come closer to understanding our humanity and then there's some humility amongst us. For this I'm grateful.

Thanks for the different points from which you look at the same thing. From the front, the man strikes a young girl, a little girl of about 4 on the head and she falls down. From the back we see a poisonous queen bee about to sting the child and the hand crush the giant bee on to the child's head, saving her life.

That's why we need to see things in all these ways.

Asher
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Personal Messages

We each have a message inside of us to tell the world. As photographers we can take several positions - within our world.

I am not going to judge the image. Sitting at the computer for home, wihtout reading the threads, I cannot tell the story in the image without it being discussed.

The photo tells a story that is not a sanitized piece of news. As a photographer, I have a right to share the work done today on the images. I can share it on OPF or other place as it is. The world can show the mage. Sadly, the image is not uplifting to the subject.

My personal choice is never to show photographs of women that denigrate women as a whole. I won't put them in a position to make them less than anyone viewing the image. I turned away a very profitable Boudoir session where she wanted to be bound and handcuffed and I turned it down. Her cloethes were tastefully elegrant.

I will not take the photograph unless the point is to change the image to create an uplifiting image and further the cause of respect for women. I extent my personal philosophy to more than women - to childre, men and animals aslo.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Kathy Rapparport said:
My personal choice is never to show photographs of women that denigrate women as a whole.
Kathy,

Good sentiments but for sure you mean not denigrate any person! For me I wouldn't pick out any one class. After all, we all ride in the same yellow tourist bus in our temporary stayon planet earth.

Simply put, "Be nice to the other folk in the tour bus!", one of my favorite thoughts :) Still, if one lies or fails to show about what's really about us, then the lights and the windows of the tour bus may as well be blacked out anywhere things are not perfect!

Instead we can have fun, enjoy the experience of life and at the same time hold up a lantern.

This is what this thread is about:

I spent some time capturing the lives on the streets during my last trip to Calcutta. I thought there was something in her eyes! Would appreciate any comments.


_MG_7770_01_1024.jpg



Abhijit Biswas Street Girl (homeless of a homeless family)


Surely, Abhiji made us think about this and so, when we do the math, I think this picture is justified and worthy of praise. This doesn't negate the fact that any depiction risks denigration. However, I see humanity and a young soul.


Asher
 
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Surely, Abhiji made us think about this and so, when we do the math, I think this picture is justified and worthy of praise.

Hi Asher, and other contributors to this thread,

I think it was Cem's strong reaction that (hopefully) made us think a bit more about exploitation for personal gain.

Abhijit's image was a good example of how easy it is to forget the power of images of people, and our responsibility to use them with care. The image was taken because his attention was drawn by the (admittedly) beautiful eyes of the girl, and it was also the first thing I saw. But how easy it is to overlook the inhumane aspects of a caste (or rather Jāti) based culture, where being born in a poor surroundings is a verdict to lead a poor existance. The image could have been presented as a statement against such injustice, but was not. Thankfully the discussion sparked by Cem somewhat made up for the missed opportunity.

To make sure, we should not cover our eyes by not sharing such images. We indeed all ride the tour bus, and the views are not always pretty, but we also have a moral responsibility to contribute our small part in improving everybody's future, not only our own.

Bart
 
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Abhijit Biswas

New member
Thanks to ALL

All,

I am grateful to all of you for all the praise and kind words. I always welcome differing views and I know by being challenged I can keep myself on track. We all are different and perhaps have strong views about life and all that matters. Some are forceful and some are not. The beauty of internet is that one does not have to be all polite all the time to express one's views. In a face to face review or critique session this does not normally happen. So, we will have to take things in right perspective.


The point is that if we never fight we will never know our strengths and weaknesses! But what we need to carefully measure is that whether "A" fight is worth fighting for. Morality, rights, etc are tough and deep rooted issues and very hard for us to change those values in a jolt and so we fight. It's not that someone is right or wrong. To understand one's perspective someone else will have to capture one's "perspective" image through one's lens of "experience" and that's not an easy thing to do. We so get a different perspective "image" every time we change the "lens"! So, life is nothing but photography or the other way around!

Anyway, I know there are lot of stalwarts are here. I am just a "new member" trying to learn some bits. I hope to be a good member of this community. So, thanks for the welcome fight!



Cheerfully yours,
Abhijit
http://www.exposurebits.com
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Yes....but....

I want to clairify my viewpoint on shooting women because it is a mission of mine.

In our society, women have been the silent minority policitcally since the beginning of time. In many cultures today they are looked down upon - still. Even here in the US they have only been able to vote for 90 years and in the last 30 have come into promenence politically.

I do choose to not use my camera in a way that belittles any human being but in particular - Women. I still see every day on photography forums where women are the subject in model forums where they are still exploited into positions I find distasteful (legs spread, sexualized poses) under the guise of "human form as art". It is just a disguise for one step above porn and titilates mostly the photographer showing off his prize of "look what I was able to get this poor creature to do for me".
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I do choose to not use my camera in a way that belittles any human being but in particular - Women. I still see every day on photography forums where women are the subject in model forums where they are still exploited into positions I find distasteful (legs spread, sexualized poses) under the guise of "human form as art". It is just a disguise for one step above porn and titilates mostly the photographer showing off his prize of "look what I was able to get this poor creature to do for me".

Kathy,

The person of the woman and her values. These makes a difference: Some women are modest and others are not. Some are totally comfortable shwoing any part of their body, others find this shameful. So there must be photographers who pay enough or use trickery to get women to pose in a way that's against their own values, This is a suitable target for your distaste. I support that view. Other women might want a playful image of them being in chains or roped up. I find that in poor taste, however, no always. Some can be elegant and celebrate the very best values.

The Women Naturally Proud of her form: However, for some of these women who wish to show themselves fully, then it's up to them and hopefully their respect of the community's values. Women are valued differently in each society. The abuses are well known. However that idea need not apply to an educated, sane, independent model who chooses to focus on nude photography to celebrate every part of her body.

Under those circumstances pictures will be made on a spectrum from architectural brilliantly lit studies, all the way to glamor, sensuous, erotic and, (to me at least), vulgar. Still, these variants are all protected by free speech as the nuances between one form and another are indefinite and culturally dependent.

With a professional studio, pictures should be checked to make sure that no images are outside of the models agreed sphere of work. Such images will be destroyed.

Each image has some social value. Like the "Street Girl", the nude image will be debated and test and re-calibrate our values perhaps or move boundaries.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I spent some time capturing the lives on the streets during my last trip to Calcutta. I thought there was something in her eyes! Would appreciate any comments.




Abhijit Biswas
[url]www.exposurebits.com
[/quote]


I am sad to read that my point has been misunderstood. I wasn't asking for a context or explanation. I was simply stating that since you do not have a valid purpose for taking this picture, it is an opportunistic picture which serves no other purpose than your own personal agenda. As such, you are actually exploiting this little girl's misfortune. You say yourself that it is not fun to be poor and homeless. We do not need your picture to tell us this fact, we know it already. From my perspective, this picture shouldn't have been taken at all. Have I made it clear now?

Cem is one of the smartest men I know and well travelled. So I take his words seriously. However, they are just one of a number of conflicting, seemingly impossibly opposite impressions one can reasonably hold. I too find that taking pictures of the destitute can be merely exploitative. After all, almost all photography of people is just that, to some degree! However, I see much good in showing such pictures, however unclear the motivation for taking the picture happened to be.

In this case, it has sparked a discussion that, no doubt, has opened the eyes of some of us to the plight of such children. Perhaps they will become more empathetic and support programs to ameliorate the fate so many children face.

So I feel these pictures should be taken, not as trophies, but with some humility. We can't and mustn't shield ourselves from these scenes.

Asher
 
I read this thread only today, not expecting the heat generated. Abhijit exercised admirable restraint throughout; Cem in attack is a fearsome competitor; Asher a superb umpire; other contributors insightful in their comments on the photo. My suspicion is that much of the heat owes to the prefix: "FUN" precedes the title, "Street girl" - an unfortunate pairing that might elicit incorrect assumptions about the photographer. Ahijit clearly never meant to imply that the photo or context were fun or funny. Indeed, my thoughts are that the girl has quiet pride and impressive dignity, which leads into a quite different discussion about respect for other people.

Preferable prefix/title combinations might include "MY WORLD: Street girl" or "IN PERSPECTIVE PLANET: Street girl".

Cheers
Mike
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I spent some time capturing the lives on the streets during my last trip to Calcutta. I thought there was something in her eyes! Would appreciate any comments.


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Abhijit Biswas
www.exposurebits.com

Thanks for the comments, Michael! I've rethought the situation and attitudes here.

Abhijat's work is, IMHO, beyond any moral reproach. I've spoken to him and he's a sincere man who is non-exploitative in these pictures. It is a necessary set of facts and disparities that we need to see. If we are shielded out of political correctness than ultimately we'll not have the education needed to make a difference in this world. Yes, it's imperfect, but I accept the cost here and it's minimal compared to the overall educational benefit. Furthermore, the picture itself is worthy and compelling.

Asher
 
Thanks for the comments, Michael! I've rethought the situation and attitudes here.

Abhijat's work is, IMHO, beyond any moral reproach. I've spoken to him and he's a sincere man who is non-exploitative in these pictures. It is a necessary set of facts and disparities that we need to see. If we are shielded out of political correctness than ultimately we'll not have the education needed to make a difference in this world. Yes, it's imperfect, but I accept the cost here and it's minimal compared to the overall educational benefit. Furthermore, the picture itself is worthy and compelling.

Asher

Quite right, Asher. The picture is worthy and compelling. The girl is an oasis of calm in the middle of a bustle of activity, the only one looking composed and at peace with herself. At the very moment the photo was taken, her eyes are brimful of intelligence and curiosity. One cannot help but to wish her well. Abhijat captures this very well indeed.

Cheers
Mike
 
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