This strikes me...

[Asher Kelman]

Murray,

What a fine piece of writing. The winding back of the military, I'll put side. It's a complex in economic issue.

In the 80s with Reaganomics, the US went from being the world's biggest creditor nation to the world's biggest debtor nation in the space of a few years.

So what was the money going for? Japanese electronic cars and consumer dod-dads or was it already oil?

The US Presidency is essentially an 18th Century Monarch elected every four years (that's what the example was at the time of writing the constitution). Under George III (Washington, Bush, Bush) a conflict that was supposed to cost tens of billions has spun out to several trillions and counting - and maybe the Empire is crumbling.

I'd love to see a map of where the money went!

Personally I think that personal freedom without social equality is a delusion just as social equality without personal freedom is a delusion. I guess what I mean by social equality is equality of opportunity for all the society, particularly in terms of education and health, and particularly for the young. Even if the overall level of income is high, a country with a poor distribution of income and large barriers to opportunity will become more violent and criminal. Also, the restriction of opportunity to particular sectors of the society will in the end become a deadweight on economic growth, even if the appearance of inequality is disguised by social convention or institutional power. An excellent viewpoint.

Finally, there is Global warming and the environment. I don't know whether George III has porphyria but he often doesn't seem to see much outside his palace and that's set us back a decade (as also happened in Australia under the sadnonically-name "Honest John"). I don't think there's any questioning the size of the problem and the need for concerted strategic action - what are the candidates really going to do? "God wants oil pipelines" doesn't sound like a very credible response.

Not porphyria, although that would be a reasonable explanation. The republicans generally have no idea about, (nor respect for), biology and chemistry. What they accept is for making money only and not in any recognition of the fundamentals of genetics behind everything. So they simply have no basis for believing those who talk about science and evidence. This joy of investigation and reverence to nature that we have, seems ungodly, almost satanic. It's as if those who are seduced by biology, oceanography, evolution and logic have fallen into the wild indecent pleasures of some mental epicurean apostacy. After all, there's no sense in the New Testament that God wouldn't look after the faithful. The simple approach is: animals are for hunting, that's why God gave us guns; big cars are for driving, God will provide the oil!

Supporting Sarah Palin on grounds of character may end up being equivalent to voting for Dan Quayle as President.

I thought it would be

"Supporting Sarah Palin on grounds of character may end up being equivalent to voting for Dan Quayle as President on grounds of his intellect."

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Rhys,

Attempts on Obama's life? I don't want anyone to be hurt. The chances are that the secret service will thwart any such plans.

The nightmare for me is that McCain might succumb to some illness in office! Seeing this Luddite woman snatched from the cold wastelands to be in line for the most powerful offcie in the land really scares me. I wouldn't want such a women, there in the oval office, with values of the hunter backed by a divine mission. We'd then be as dangerous as the Iranians (tell us they are)!

Yes, Obama is a media phenomenon and a great risk for us, but only from lack of backbone, not because of any actual evil motivating passion beyond narcissism. Essentially, Obama is a self-involved good chap. Still, I would like to see a president with a strong moral compass which directs him to make the world a better place, (but not by just not bombing it), LOL. So from my point of view Obama comes up short. That, he's already shown. Still, I must admit, Palin is far worse to me; she thinks she's informed on right and wrong and can recruit God to her purpose to overcome any logical obstacle. That is not a moral compass, that is at best hubris. But it's not that. It's far worse than that. It comes from lack of basic education and sense of what rights human beings should have and what limits we should put on our power over the land and people over which we have assumed dominion.

Asher

 

[Michael Fontana]

Yes, Obama is a media phenomenon and a great risk for us, but only from lack of backbone, not because of any actual evil motivating passion beyond narcissism. Essentially, Obama is a self-involved good chap. Still, I would like to see a president with a strong moral compass which directs him to make the world a better place, (but not by just not bombing it), LOL. So from my point of view Obama comes up short. That, he's already shown. Still, I must admit, Palin is far worse to me; she thinks she's informed on right and wrong and can recruit God to her purpose to overcome any logical obstacle. That is not a moral compass, that is at best hubris. But it's not that. It's far worse than that. It comes from lack of basic education and sense of what rights human beings should have and what limits we should put on our power over the land and people over which we have assumed dominion.

Asher

Reading your words, I wonder about the continuos - it's a year already, or even longer? - millionworth selection campains - a free soap opera for the media only?

After becoming finally top dog, the candidate conjures a bunny (potential president) out of the black hat, following the present party's needs...

 

[Murray Foote]

Murray,

What a fine piece of writing.

Thank you Asher.

I thought it would be

"Supporting Sarah Palin on grounds of character may end up being equivalent to voting for Dan Quayle as President on grounds of his intellect."

Asher

That's probably a better way of putting it. She may be much more formidable than Dan Quayle. One thing I had in mind though is that Dan Quayle's parents were John Birchers and to the extent that she may share the same intransigent outlook the outcome may be the same. There have been lots of cases of very smart people who are nonetheless the prisoners of very stupid ideas and who end up looking less than smart.

Regards,
Murray

 

[Doug Kerr]

While having "good character" would seem to be a desirable minimum qualification for a candidate, there are the following problems:

1. There is certainly no universal definition of "good character". There are people whose "character" traits I find disappointing who might seem to other people to be "perfect" in that department, and conversely.

2. Unfortunately, we never can really calibrate the true character of anybody expect perhaps through a lifetime of association with them.

3. "Good character" is certainly not enough to qualify a candidate. The person may lack knowledge, or skill, or experience, or judgment, or may just hold to principles of governance, or priorities that differ from ours. I have been in many firms that were ruined by the management of persons of "good character".

So lets not hope for a situation in which we just "elect people based on character".

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Nill Toulme]

...Yes, Obama is a media phenomenon and a great risk for us, but only from lack of backbone, not because of any actual evil motivating passion beyond narcissism. Essentially, Obama is a self-involved good chap. Still, I would like to see a president with a strong moral compass which directs him to make the world a better place, (but not by just not bombing it), LOL. So from my point of view Obama comes up short. That, he's already shown. ...

Asher, why do you say this, and in what respect(s) do you think McCain has shown himself to be superior in any of these aspects of "character?"

Nill

 

[Rhys Sage]

Sorry to be stunned Rhys, but who was/is 'lil Billy-bob'?
Cheers
Mike

William Jefferson Clinton - the redneck president that even has a library named after him that looks just like a double-wide.

Rhys,

Attempts on Obama's life? I don't want anyone to be hurt. The chances are that the secret service will thwart any such plans.
Asher

Well, it looks like people have tried already. That's why they're wasting money protecting him.

What I'm waiting for is the real sleaze to start flying. I bet if he gets hit by enough sleaze scandals that the Democratic party will toss him out and get somebody better. Even if it's manufactured sleaze, it's fine.

I remember the Deputy Prime Minister in Britain who got hit by sleaze. Ron Davies was Blair's deputy at one point. Then he got mugged in London while trying to pick up gay sex partners in a public park and without a police escort. He stayed on in politics but had to resign his post. Six weeks later he was caught by a newspaper reporter posing as a rent boy and that made the headlines. He retired from politics almost overnight and his long-suffering wife I believe decided that she'd suffered him enough.

 

[Murray Foote]

Hmmm. I would have thought a Brit would have considered being a Rhodes Scholar and being a redneck mutually incompatible. The closest I can think of to a redneck President would be Andrew Jackson and the term would have had no meaning in 1830.

Failing an invasion of Iran or a small Caribbean Island, I'm sure the Republicans will do their best to invent scandals because they wouldn't want the voters to start considering policies.

No question, the Blair Government was a lost opportunity after the turn of the century and there was more than one scandal (awkward suicide, whiff of honours corruption). However, surely over the years it would be the British Conservative Party that had the lion's share of sexual scandals. On that basis, probably a sexual scandal involving the Republican candidates would be more likely....

Regards,
Murray

 

[Rhys Sage]

I quite agree.... The Conservative Party has had a very entertaining series of sexual scandals. One of the people I used to know, knew the Conservative MPs personally. He had been a Civil Servant but when he retired had a sex change operation. When the conversation could be steered away from gender, he told entertaining titbits about the sexual scandals that the public never heard.

Of the Conservative scandals, the two most entertaining were their man in the House of Lords whose wife committed suicide after returning home to find him in bed, romping away with her best friend's husband. Then there was the Conservative MP found dead in his flat wearing nothing but three ladies stockings and who'd accidentally strangled himself with a length of electrical cable.

 

[Asher Kelman]

While having "good character" would seem to be a desirable minimum qualification for a candidate, there are the following problems:

1. There is certainly no universal definition of "good character". There are people whose "character" traits I find disappointing who might seem to other people to be "perfect" in that department, and conversely.

2. Unfortunately, we never can really calibrate the true character of anybody expect perhaps through a lifetime of association with them.

3. "Good character" is certainly not enough to qualify a candidate. The person may lack knowledge, or skill, or experience, or judgment, or may just hold to principles of governance, or priorities that differ from ours. I have been in many firms that were ruined by the management of persons of "good character".

So lets not hope for a situation in which we just "elect people based on character".

Best regards,

Doug

Doug,

That's an important containment of a simplistic but important idea. We do know what we mean by character from incidents. Much more of course is needed to describe anyone's fitness for a job!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, why do you say this, and in what respect(s) do you think McCain has shown himself to be superior in any of these aspects of "character?"

Nill

Good question Nill,

My answer may not be sufficient. Of course it starts with the near the bottom of the class (as you pointed out) officer staying with his subordinates in North vietnam rather than get released. Most of the time he's taken unpopular political stands such as the condemnation of torture which painted him as the ant-Bush "disloyal" Republican. (I don't know the details of the alleged "cave-in"). The support for the "surge" of troops in Iraq was so opposite to the public sentiment. He generally goes with his own conviction not expediency. He did not use his wife's wealth to bipass lack of interest in his campaign. He carried his own bags and doggedly continued his campaign, outlasting others with huge budgets. Why? Because people believe he is trustworthy.

By contrast, for decades, Obama sat in the pews of his church and tolerated ranting against the USA and supporting racist rhetoric. Never did he protest!

Still, the choice of Palin has sorely tested by trust in McCain's judgement. All I can imagine is that the Republicans pushed Palin on him in return for winning support of the right. For whatever reason, the choice I find degrades him. Sadly, our choice cannot be good for a lot of us who want to support him.

Asher

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

By contrast, for decades, Obama sat in the pews of his church and tolerated ranting against the USA and supporting racist rhetoric. Never did he protest!

Jeez! Sitting in pews for decades! That would tire out anybody's rear. Why do we not hear of this torture in Obama's speeches?

Asher, you're really between a rock and a hard place. You cannot support Obama (I haven't had the energy to follow just why), you are (understandably) gravely disappointed in "the new" McCain, and for some reason you just can't understand that Sarah Palin is the absolutely positively best possible candidate of all time for Vice President that exists in the entire Universe. (There was of course that Chinese girl, but it turned out that she was only 13, and McCain is evidently very superstitious.)

Perhaps you will have an opportunity to vote for Ralph Nader.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



Jeez! Sitting in pews for decades! That would tire out anybody's rear. Why do we not hear of this torture in Obama's speeches?

Doug,

Humor aside, doesn't it bother you that Obama didn't ever express his objections to his minister and close friend's rants? What about that Churches open embrace of the racist Louis Farrakan? How do you give Obama's silence a free pass for this?

Also why no obviously and significant reformist legislation initiated by Obama? Why no use of his Senatorial power to reverse the plight of the descendants of American brutality to the West Africans, ripped out of their villages by slaving marauders and sold to the sea captains from Europe. Yes, he worked as an activist, but where's the meaningful legislation? It's hard to find!

Listening to the man, I'd love to follow him. (He's no genius on foreign policy and health care, but still he's a positive man). Obama's so logical, personable and charming! The USA has gone through a stressful unpopular war, diversion of wealth and jobs overseas and a terrible deficit. Obama offers to clean out the mess. He's so believable and being "African American", media thinks he's a superstar. He's so "un-Bush" and best he has no apparent connections to the oil and war machine interests.

However, there's a mismatch for what he'd do in the next 4 years compared to what he's even tried to achieve in the past 8 years. What has he achieved for the country, beyond the free pass for a history of racism and to assuage the guilt of slavery. Even in that, he's a false Messiah, since he is not an African slave lifted up. Each African American is a descendant of genocide and a criminal age. We have not yet reconstituted the family units that the salve owners almost obliterated. Christianity with the promise of a better future in "The Promised Land" offered hope and strength. "Amazing Grace" embodies such belief, hope and beauty possible beyond the acrid smoke of racism in the eyes and throats of the children of slaves bearing the blood of the slave owner. Their descendants are angry and justifiably. The whites are embarrassed and want absolution. Enter Obama, the "African American", the Anti-Bush" the giver of communion to the whites and forgiveness. At last, unity, a coming together of the races and pulling back the military and federal excesses! Of course he's a superstar. However, I'm reminded of another guy, despite his racism, had a good voice:

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!

T.S. Eliot

The rest is here.

Yes, Barack Obama, is of a mixed marriage, but so what. That bears little on the specific searing pain of slavery and inner city economic blight. Despite that he's succeeded pretty well in melding his identity to the descendants of slaves, but he's not of them. It's just a false impression, a mask of convenience. That exploits our slavery crimes and makes us feel better about America. I am cynical that there is anything deeper than that. I could of course be proven very wrong.

Asher

McCain would have never remained in Rev Right's Church, that's for sure!

 

[Doug Kerr]

Even in that, he's a false Messiah, since he is not an African slave lifted up.

In fact, he's not even an African-American.

Charlize Theron is an African-American.

And you know I'm a native American. That's right - I was born in Cincinnati.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

In fact, he's not even an African-American.

Charlize Theron is an African-American.

And you know I'm a native American. That's right - I was born in Cincinnati.

Doug,

Thanks for the heads up on that! I never knew. You are great at diversionary humor. This time it's also a sensory blessing and you have excellent taste, reaching out to an immigrant waif from South Africa for special mention. Now, back to reality. Address the issues I raised. That's, please!

Asher

 

[Rhys Sage]

As far as I know, Barrack Osama is not even American.
http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/6524

 

[Doug Kerr]

As far as I know, Barrack Osama is not even American.
http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/6524

Well, I don't know anything about Barack Osama. Does he play for the Browns? The Indians? There are a lot of athletes on American teams that aren't American.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Address the issues I raised. That's, please!

Oh, they are way too tedious! But thanks for the invitation.

As for me, getting the Republicans out of the White House is so important that I would vote for Harry Truman to do it. (The man had a great way with The Bomb!)

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,


Oh, they are way too tedious! But thanks for the invitation.

As for me, getting the Republicans out of the White House is so important that I would vote for Harry Truman to do it. (The man had a great way with The Bomb!)

Hi Doug,

You in fact answered my questions very succinctly in the Truman reference. I fully understand the disappointment, frustration, embarrassment and disgust in the Cheney-Bush web of poor policies and degradation of safeguards we have fought for. We just have two different solutions each with some doubtful aspects.

Ultimately we do not have enough sound information to make an engineering or scientific decision. We just have to do our best. My choice is not my first choice, but the best I see, and thats Senator McCain.
However, I cannot say truthfully that an apple with one mark is better than an orange with another, for that is what we are really down to.

Asher

 

[Nill Toulme]

Asher so I take it you consider finishing almost dead last in his class at the academy is a point in McCain's favor? ;-)

Here's a pretty good article on McCain, Bush and the torture issue. This sort of thing is pretty easy to find if you just look, but you certainly can't count on the so-called liberal media (which is now all owned by what, two or is it still three giant corporations) to tell it to you. They're too busy telling you about burning issues like whether Bill Clinton is still pouting or where Sarah Palin gets her hair done.

BTW, I understand Palin had wondered out loud just exactly what it is that the VP does. I bet she'll be thrilled to find out that, thanks to Cheney, it's in charge all kinds of cool stuff like torture, secret prisons, spying on Americans (including what they check out of libraries... she'll really love that one), coming up with more stuff to keep secret, etc. etc. etc.

Nill

 

[Nill Toulme]

...However, I cannot say truthfully that an apple with one mark is better than an orange with another, for that is what we are really down to.

Then make your vote based not on the men but on the parties and the policies they represent. Do you really think the Republicans have earned your vote for four more years? Heck, even the Republicans don't think so — they keep talking about the need for change and saying that Washington isn't working. They certainly got that part right.

Nill

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Good question Nill,

My answer may not be sufficient. Of course it starts with the near the bottom of the class (as you pointed out) officer staying with his subordinates in North vietnam rather than get released. Most of the time he's taken unpopular political stands such as the condemnation of torture which painted him as the ant-Bush "disloyal" Republican. (I don't know the details of the alleged "cave-in"). The support for the "surge" of troops in Iraq was so opposite to the public sentiment. He generally goes with his own conviction not expediency. He did not use his wife's wealth to bipass lack of interest in his campaign. He carried his own bags and doggedly continued his campaign, outlasting others with huge budgets. Why? Because people believe he is trustworthy.

Hi Asher,

With all due respect for your intelligence, I'm troubled by your (tentative?) support for the McCain 'alternative'.

Common sense, at least from my conservative European perspecitve, indicates that little is to be expected from a current/conventional Republican (and I do acknowledge that John might be a little different, although a republican nevertheless). Promises are cheap, but what does his affiliation with the party that spawned the Bush clan tell (apart from poor judgement)?

By contrast, for decades, Obama sat in the pews of his church and tolerated ranting against the USA and supporting racist rhetoric. Never did he protest!

And rightly so, although supporting seems a bit too strong (for not publicly distancing himself) ! Not only didn't he 'sit' in the pews, he probably witnessed the racist(!) tendencies of nowadays 'U'SA from much closer than most citizens did. And he didn't choose his parents (who apparently made good judgement calls)..., but he did choose to make a difference.

Still, the choice of Palin has sorely tested by trust in McCain's judgement. All I can imagine is that the Republicans pushed Palin on him in return for winning support of the right. For whatever reason, the choice I find degrades him. Sadly, our choice cannot be good for a lot of us who want to support him.

Again, although not I'm troubled but even amazed, the choice of Palin is brilliant from a campaign (!) point of view (a potential disaster from a realistic point of view though). What does John McCain learn from the (reportedly single!) impression he got of her. Let's be realistic, she's (less than) a heart beat away from becoming the most powerful person in the world. I'd rather gamble in a Casino where I'm sure the odds are against me.

Clearly, I'd be more impressed by a person who takes quick well informed/thought through decisions, than someone stuck in rethorical standpoints based on one's dated esperiences (which by no means attempts to detract from John's past choices).

Bart

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this, but I had to piss off an Episcopal Bishop and a California music scorist first.

On John McCain

I really like John McCain. If I were Director of Engineering of a modest-sized telephone company, and I heard that John McCain was being appointed Vice President of Human Resources, I would be delighted. And I would certainly would be pleased to vote for him as Mayor of Weatherford, Texas (and and I don't at all mean by that metaphor that I don't think him suited for "larger responsibilities" - clearly mayor of Weatherford is "beneath his sphere", but my point is that I wouldn't be at all uneasy if he were, somehow, to take that position).

But we speak here of someone who hopes to be the Republican president of the United States. That's R-E-P-U-B . . .

And if we put a gasoline nozzle on a water hose, water still comes out.

When I go into a gas station, I look at what hose the nozzle is on before sticking it into my tank. (I look at the nozzle, too. That is a fascinating field all its own. For example, . . . Ah, but I digress.)

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Gary Ayala]

It's politics guys...

Anything that'll get the job done...

Incidentally, on politics, I know a shed load of staunch Democrats that're going to vote for McCain because they dislike Barrack Hussein Osama so much.

This was an event in Yorba Linda, California. More importantly Yorba Linda is in Orange County, the heart of the Republican stronghold in California. The event was a gathering of Obama supporters who just wanted to watch a historic event together ... the acceptance speech by a black man nominated as the presidential candidate of a major political party.

All totaled, about 50 peole attended this party which was held in a restaurant a block or two from Richard Nixon's birthplace. Old and young, students and professionals, blue collar and white collar, Democrats and Republicans all there for a change (and none disrespected the Republican candidate with cheap and misleading shots).

Gary

PS- There were more than 120 of these acceptantance speech parties in Southern California alone.
G

 

[Gary Ayala]

After the standard set by Bush, how can any President possibly be impeached ever again?

Nill

I'm late to this thread ... but ^that^ is pretty good (lol). I'll use it ... and I'll even give you attribution Nill.

Gary

 

[Gary Ayala]

Good question Nill,

My answer may not be sufficient. Of course it starts with the near the bottom of the class (as you pointed out) officer staying with his subordinates in North vietnam rather than get released. Most of the time he's taken unpopular political stands such as the condemnation of torture which painted him as the ant-Bush "disloyal" Republican. (I don't know the details of the alleged "cave-in"). The support for the "surge" of troops in Iraq was so opposite to the public sentiment. He generally goes with his own conviction not expediency. He did not use his wife's wealth to bipass lack of interest in his campaign. He carried his own bags and doggedly continued his campaign, outlasting others with huge budgets. Why? Because people believe he is trustworthy.

By contrast, for decades, Obama sat in the pews of his church and tolerated ranting against the USA and supporting racist rhetoric. Never did he protest!

Still, the choice of Palin has sorely tested by trust in McCain's judgement. All I can imagine is that the Republicans pushed Palin on him in return for winning support of the right. For whatever reason, the choice I find degrades him. Sadly, our choice cannot be good for a lot of us who want to support him.

Asher

I agree on McCain character, he has it in spades ... but across the entire convention all the Reps do was recounted his war record ... but I gotta tell you, I am getting sick and tired of hearing about his 5.5 years in hell.

While it is a very good story ... and yes, John McCain is a war hero. When he spoke of being broken and tapping messages between cells ... caused a lump to my throat and a knot in my stomach. The mere fact that he followed his code over an early release made me reflect on what I would do in a similar situation ... and how I, in comparison, is just a pimple, when I compare my war record to his ... but still how many times do you have to hit me over the head. Dear GOP, I get it ... if I ever need a war hero with POW experience I'll give John McCain a call.

Okay so let's talk about the ecomony (... silence ...), global warming ( ... silence ...), a 'real' energy policy - one that differs from the past eight years ( ... silence ...), new and better foreign policy (... silence ...), change from Republicanism as usual - the polarization of the nation, my way or the highway mentality, government for the benefit of the few, cronyism (lip service but MaCain voted 90%+ with Bush ... so much for character).

I am not convinced that McCain who voted 90%+ with the president will bring the changes this country needs in Washington.

Your point of Obama sitting in a pew is well taken ... but once again not so simple ... Obama was a community organizer ... he was attending the principal church of his constituency ... courting with the devil he knew (as the church had many resources) was better for the community than alienating those he desired to help because of a few 1960-ish sermons.

I also appreciate Obama's character ... tossing out a career on Wall Street which would have started at $250,000 a year to work in the slums of Chicago for $40,000 speaks to Obama's character. Is there anyone here on this forum that would have acted similarily? While Obama was not tested by fire as McCain, Obama's choice was self-determined ... McCain was purely circumstantial.

Interesting, after Palin's speech which seemed to fire up the right, causing them to donate $1,000,000 to McCain the following day ... she also fired up the left, causing them, in the same period, to donate $10,000,000 to Obama.

Gary

 

[doug anderson]

Gary

PS- There were more than 120 of these acceptantance speech parties in Southern California alone.
G

Very cool, Gary. I think there are surprises in store on election day, and that all the polls run by mainstream media are bullshit. They're all pushing the drama of the close race, whether it is or not.

 

[Rhys Sage]

none disrespected the Republican candidate with cheap and misleading shots

Politics is 100% about cheap and misleading shots.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher

Of course it starts with the near the bottom of the class (as you pointed out) officer staying with his subordinates in North vietnam rather than get released.

I've recently heard that his fellow POW's were really disappointed by his decision - they were very anxious to get him out of their midst.

Doug

 

[Gary Ayala]

Politics is 100% about cheap and misleading shots.

Another cheap shot.